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ETA: The conclusion

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Am I the jerk?

  • Yes

    Votes: 46 34%

  • No

    Votes: 62 46%

  • I like turtles

    Votes: 27 20%
  • Total voters
    135
  • Poll closed .
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281 - 300 of 391 Posts
#281 ·
bdamschen said:
Oh hell yeah. Full face helmet worn at an awkward angle with the visor all the way down?
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Nah. Visor all the way up. Bike was complete with the plastic spoke guard and the 90 degree level brake levers. Mind you, it's gonna be 104f later that day with a 100% chance of swamp ass
 
#282 ·
JohnShroe said:
valid point, not doing myself any favors using the new wattage before it's been legalized stateside.
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Philosophical question regarding the intertwining of bicycles and human power- What about gravity powered bikes? Where does their definition lie? Technically elevation is like a big battery that stores up potential energy to be unleashed upon the trails once they turn downward.

In theory it only takes a 17.18 lb weight in free fall at 32 feet per second to generate 1 hp (746 watts). Obviously things like the steepness of the hill, rolling resistance, wind resistance, smoothness of the terrain, etc play a factor, but you're still cashing in quite a big check at the bank of power when you turn around and point your ride downhill. So now you have the question- does it matter how that power was banked in the first place(shuttle, electric motor, chair lift, human legs, etc.)?

We're all cheaters on the descents.
 
#283 ·
r-rocket said:
That is the logic of the d-bags who drive at 62MPH in the fast lane on the interstate, and say "65mph is the speed limit, I'm following the law".

Yea, you can meet the minimum gov't requirements for following the law, and still be the one who is The Jerk.
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And you know damn well that's not what happened in OP's scenario.

Sticking to the car analogy, a slower car on a single lane road with no pullouts is under zero obligation to drive off the road to let someone faster go by. if turnouts exist and cars are stacking up, then yeah, you have the obligation to use one.

just because OP's trail mellowed out doesn't necessarily mean there were good places for passing. OP is under no obligation whatsoever to actually get off the trail for the rider behind. rider behind made absolutely certain that OP wasn't going to go out of his way by calling out aggressively to begin with.

PLENTY of times I've rolled up behind someone because I've been just a little bit faster than them and I just hang out back there for awhile because I don't have the reserves to pass. when they ask if I want to pass, I politely decline. was it the end of the world for the ebiker in OP's situation to do the same for a few minutes? of course not. But Mr. Impatient couldn't handle just moving at a respectable pace.

bdamschen said:
So now you have the question- does it matter how that power was banked in the first place(shuttle, electric motor, chair lift, human legs, etc.)?
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Nope. And anyone ahead of you is under zero obligation to jump out of your way if you're the faster rider. And if you ride up on a slower rider like a jerk, expect that they won't like it.
 
#286 ·
bdamschen said:
I get down the hill pretty fast, and lately I've been getting more than one lap on the ol ebike. My take is it ain't a race and no one is obligated to pull over for anyone else. If I catch someone on a descent, I'll either:
1. Pull over and let them reel out far enough that it's not longer a problem, or...
2. Hang behind them and wait for a second where I can pass them clean.

You'd think that would be simple, but there are a lot of people that have a problem with option 2. I suspect it's because they perhaps find the trail more challenging and therefore don't agree with what I view as a safe location to pass. Sometimes they get bent out of shape just by the mere fact that I'm right behind them waiting for a good moment to get around.

Note that standing in the middle of the trail gaping over the edge at the next tech section does not get the same treatment. GTFO the trail if you ain't riding it when other riders are approaching.
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Sadly, sometimes I have the same GTFO mentality when I pedal up behind someone climbing. I am not claiming to be proud of this. But it is the truth. Climbing puts me in full attack dog mode. This definitely happens if I feel like I might clean an entire section that I don't always manage without a foot dab or hike-a-bike. Heaven help ye who stand in my way.
 
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#287 ·
bdamschen said:
Philosophical question regarding the intertwining of bicycles and human power- What about gravity powered bikes? Where does their definition lie? Technically elevation is like a big battery that stores up potential energy to be unleashed upon the trails once they turn downward.

In theory it only takes a 17.18 lb weight in free fall at 32 feet per second to generate 1 hp (746 watts). Obviously things like the steepness of the hill, rolling resistance, wind resistance, smoothness of the terrain, etc play a factor, but you're still cashing in quite a big check at the bank of power when you turn around and point your ride downhill. So now you have the question- does it matter how that power was banked in the first place(shuttle, electric motor, chair lift, human legs, etc.)?

We're all cheaters on the descents.
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I suppose this is why downhiller yield to uphillers, those taking advantage of some form of stored energy yield to those expending it...
 
#288 ·
jeffbinco said:
This kerfuffle started over uphill etiquette. So how do we handle downhill yielding? I guarantee I am slower than most everyone else downhill. I've been known to ride up and take the lift down. If I hear someone catching me on a descent, I move over and let 'em go by. I don't want anyone up in my business while I thread my way down the hill.

The only rides with long enough descents for this to even be an issue are where I'm only doing one lap a day. Two at most. Historically, I would simply treat anyone catching me downhill as a faster descender and not think any more about it. But now I'm wondering how many of those folks might be "assisted" getting to the top and doing 3 or 4 or more laps. Am I really obliged to interrupt my one ride down so that the e-bikers are not inconvenienced on their fifth lap of the day?
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Yielding on the downhills is exactly the same as for the uphills. It is not your duty to get out of the way. From my first comment, if someone rolls up hot on you, whether going uphill or downhill:

1) Nicely state that you are present
2) Ask them if and when they are comfortable with you passing them
3) or if you can see down the trail and there is a section with multiple lines, you ask if it’s ok for you to pass on the right or left.

It really doesn’t matter if the rider who wants to pass is on a normal bike or an e-bike. That’s really the bottom line.
 
#289 ·
Pisgah said:
I’m getting older (55) and I see a world where in 10 or 15 years I might have an e-bike. And I can say for sure that if or when that happens, I will never ask a mountain biker who is struggling to make the technical climb to move over because I’m faster (due to the motor on my bike).

I simply cannot believe people are advocating a different position. WTF?
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But to the motorbike group, you'd simply be interfering with their motoring fun. They place no value to the personal effort involved. That is except for the few on this forum who max out their HR while on the e-bike :rolleyes:
 
#290 ·
DavidEstaFuera said:
You're not wrong, but you're missing the point. Nothing was impeding this use of the trail. I was impeding his speed on the trail. It does absolutely matter that he was on an e-bike. Like I already said, my opinion, further solidified by many of the people here that are clearly e-bikers, is that if you're on an e-bike, you can sit up and slow down until you can pass at your leisure. Anyone on a normal bike, on a climb should not have to change their ride whatsoever because someone else is using assistance.
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I saw where you posted a link to the trail. I watched a different video with a full run. It looks like a fun trail.

With all the cactus, rocks along the side of the trail, and cliff sides, it looks like that trail has a serious challenge for passing. There is very little opportunity for a brute-force overtake. Even for an e-bike.

Which makes it even more important on that specific trail for everyone to extend all possible courtesy to all other trail users. Otherwise it devolves into race-track mentality, where nobody gives the courtesy of announcing themselves for fear of being blocked. Where people make risky passes because they won't be allowed by. Elbow bumping becomes common because nobody is willing to let up to let others pass.

Such highly limited passing requires MORE "share the trail" good stewardship of shared trails, not less.

You came here and requested all of us tell you whether you were a jerk or not. So I'm going to tell you what you asked for, whether you like the answer or not.

"....should not have to change their ride whatsoever because someone else..."

That's a jerk attitude. That's what earns you a "Yes" vote on being a jerk.

EVERYBODY must change their rides to accommodate other trail users. ESPECIALLY when trail conditions are more challenging. That is the whole point of the entire "Share the Trail" philosophy. Not just assert your full "rights" against other trail users just because you can. Find opporutities to change your ride in ways that promote sharing the trail.

That's true EVEN WHEN you personally dislike their mode of trail use.

Scratch that. That's true ESPECIALLY when you personally dislike their mode of trail use. You should have responded to him exactly the same as if he would have answered "I'm a meat-bag pro-rider".
 
#291 ·
jeffbinco said:
Sadly, sometimes I have the same GTFO mentality when I pedal up behind someone climbing. I am not claiming to be proud of this. But it is the truth. Climbing puts me in full attack dog mode. This definitely happens if I feel like I might clean an entire section that I don't always manage without a foot dab or hike-a-bike. Heaven help ye who stand in my way.
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Eh, some days you get wide open trails and are able to put down a heater, some days you end up with a little grom and one of their parents teaching them the joys of the sport, or a noob figuring out how traction works, or hell sometimes in our hood you'd end up with a literal cow rolling down the single track in front of you wildly trying to find a way off the damn mountain before the two wheeled predator behind them eats them. We mountain bikers live in chaos. Want a controlled environment? Go play on the pavement.
 
#292 ·
Well its about time we put this thread to bed.

Overall we agree that people shouldn't d bags out on the trail regardless of what bike is used.
Lets agree to disagree re e bike classifications.
 
#296 · (Edited)
DavidEstaFuera said:
I mean, that's exactly the jist of the question. Is the example the same thing when it's a one lane highway, it's an F1 car going 200mph wanting to overtake another car doing 110, and pulling over results in potential detriment to the car who has to pull over to the side? I dunno, no definitive answer for the car thing either.

I'll fully admit that it's not an easy or straightforward question, hence the original post.
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That's actually an easy answer. Let's break it down:

1) If the highway authority allows F1 cars to drive at 200mph on the same road you are on, you must respect the choice to allow F1 cars doing 200mph having the same right to be on the same road as you have. Even if you think they are "cheating" with all that downforce, and don't have to work as hard to corner as you do.

2) If for example the local custom is for F1 cars to flash their lights when they are behind you to pass (like on the Autobahn), then follow that courtesy as it is the safest for everyone when that is followed. Even if there is no "laws" requiring you to. Even if you are triggered and offended by being flashed, because you have a very fast sedan and rarely get passed by other sedans. Sorry.

3) Don't do something unsafe when extending courtesy, nobody is suggesting that. But when you admit you COULD have pulled over safely IF it had been a professional race car driver, or they were driving in a sedan instead of an F1 car, you are a jerk.
 
#297 ·
bdamschen said:
I get down the hill pretty fast, and lately I've been getting more than one lap on the ol ebike. My take is it ain't a race and no one is obligated to pull over for anyone else. If I catch someone on a descent, I'll either:
1. Pull over and let them reel out far enough that it's not longer a problem, or...
2. Hang behind them and wait for a second where I can pass them clean.

You'd think that would be simple, but there are a lot of people that have a problem with option 2. I suspect it's because they perhaps find the trail more challenging and therefore don't agree with what I view as a safe location to pass. Sometimes they get bent out of shape just by the mere fact that I'm right behind them waiting for a good moment to get around.

Note that standing in the middle of the trail gaping over the edge at the next tech section does not get the same treatment. GTFO the trail if you ain't riding it when other riders are approaching.
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Agree with all of that.
 
#298 ·
bdamschen said:
Eh, some days you get wide open trails and are able to put down a heater, some days you end up with a little grom and one of their parents teaching them the joys of the sport, or a noob figuring out how traction works, or hell sometimes in our hood you'd end up with a literal cow rolling down the single track in front of you wildly trying to find a way off the damn mountain before the two wheeled predator behind them eats them. We mountain bikers live in chaos. Want a controlled environment? Go play on the pavement.
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Ha, a couple days ago I followed a calf for for ~200 meters. It had plenty of open space to step off to. But no, that hoodlum stayed right on the singletrack blocking me. It even started dropping grenades in my path. I think that may be my strategy from now on. You roll up behind me and you may get more than you bargained for.
 
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#299 ·
DavidEstaFuera said:
Well, now you've done it. Bacon Fat or whatever his name will be along shortly to be an asshole for anyone keeping track.
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@Bacon Fat If you ever catch me crying like a baby about how someone wanted to pass me who I didn't think deserved to pass me, then please call me out for being a Prima Donna. I will want the ego check.
 
#300 ·
Harold said:
And you know damn well that's not what happened in OP's scenario.

Sticking to the car analogy, a slower car on a single lane road with no pullouts is under zero obligation to drive off the road to let someone faster go by. if turnouts exist and cars are stacking up, then yeah, you have the obligation to use one.

just because OP's trail mellowed out doesn't necessarily mean there were good places for passing. OP is under no obligation whatsoever to actually get off the trail for the rider behind. rider behind made absolutely certain that OP wasn't going to go out of his way by calling out aggressively to begin with.

PLENTY of times I've rolled up behind someone because I've been just a little bit faster than them and I just hang out back there for awhile because I don't have the reserves to pass. when they ask if I want to pass, I politely decline. was it the end of the world for the ebiker in OP's situation to do the same for a few minutes? of course not. But Mr. Impatient couldn't handle just moving at a respectable pace.



Nope. And anyone ahead of you is under zero obligation to jump out of your way if you're the faster rider. And if you ride up on a slower rider like a jerk, expect that they won't like it.
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The problem with your post, is that the OP was clear that he was willing and able to allow a pro rider on a pedal bike to pass.

He made it very clear that the reason why he chose not to facilitate a pass wasn't because of safety. It was because the other trail user was using a mode of transportation he does not like.

So any talk of safety is a red-herring since he was willing to allow a pass by a meat-bag. So let's take all the hand-wringing about safety off the table. If it wasn't safe, he would have simple said "it's not safe here", and not ask if the other rider was on an ebike.

This is literally down to whether you are a jerk for extending one trail courtesy to one set of trail users you like, and not extending the same courtesy to ones you do not like.
 
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