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Nerding out about tires (general tire chat)

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snow snakes

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Lots of folks here (myself included) like to talk about tires and how they perform, but the discussion tends to get split up into very specific threads for one tire/brand, or new threads every time someone has a question on how things compare. I thought it might be cool to have a thread for tire discussion to have ongoing conversations.

I wasn't up to my usual tire nerdery over the first half of the summer, as I committed early on to the WTB Macro as my race tire, and was pretty much just riding that. However, I am now in the post-race part of the season, and have more room to try stuff out. On my 120/140 bike, I've been trying out the Macro on my XC wheelset, but with the Light/Fast Rolling that I've been using out back, with the new Light/High Grip version out front, which is a huge step up in confidence for a barely noticeable increase in rolling speed. On the trail wheelset, I've been running my old mainstay Vigilante light/high grip out front with the new Peacekeeper out back - haven't had enough rides on the Peacekeeper to say much about it yet.

I just built up a bigger bike again, which has given me the opportunity to try some more aggressive tires. I ran some Kryptotal Fr/Xynotals from Conti in the DH casing, which gripped well but feel very wooden (they kind of beat me up). Most recently I'm running the Gravity Pro Alberts from Schwalbe, which have a great casing feel but feel a bit vague, like I don't know quite where I am relative to side knobs, or if I'm about to suddenly run out of grip. I'm going to keep playing with those, but may order some Enduro casing Contis to see if that's the sweet spot.
 
#2 ·
Purchased and mounted 2 PEACEKEEPER tires on, new, straight UST rims. I have gone through 20 tires in the last year, and several hundred over many years. These newbies are the significantly wobbly, wavy. I will be curious about what others are experiencing. Outside of that, RR is not bad (not the best for this category), weight is high, control is good, and volume is exceptional (tall and 2.45 after stretch). If they have good reliability, they would be worth purchase if they are not all wobbly.
 
#3 ·
Conti is annoying right now because the SS compound is about equal to MaxxTerra, but it's hard or impossible to find SS in lighter casings than DH. They just don't have a MaxxGrip equivalent. On my trail bike for dry riding, I currently have a Xynotal rear and e13 Grappler mopo on the front. I looked for an Assegai clone with good open spaces between the knobs plus beefy side knobs, and it's working out well.
 
#4 ·
My nerdy tire thoughts are about why tire manufacturers still develop multi compound tires.

And I wonder more and more on what is your max tire weight limit per tire for just training or touring ? Like downcountry or general trail riding. It seems more and more with certain brands that sub 900 gram general purpose / trail tires are hard to find in their portfolios for rides that include (a lot of) pedalling.
 
#5 ·
The bike world has figured out that the tire is faster if not repairing it trailside. This is also why Maxxis is losing market share. I have used 700g tires that are slower than other 900g tires. My practical limit is around 1000g for our dessert riding, at 200lbs and rocky tech. BTW, Pirelli (single compound) tires may be what you are looking for. Some of the best QC around.
 
#6 ·
I ride high country desert and have been on maxxis for years at this point. On the enduro I have a maxxgrip assegai exo+ up front and a dhrII DD maxxterra in the back and I haven't come across anything that grips like that setup. It does quite well in very loose, dry, kitty litter and on all the rocks around here. Including being quite durable, I ran non DD (exo+) for awhile too and had 0 issues with durability but when I hit parks I wanted the heavier compound

On the trail bike I chose grip instead of efficiency because I'll deal with climbing slower for more downhill shenanigans. Originally ran the Assegai maxxgrip exo+ up front on that (still do) and started with a dissector maxxterra exo+ in the back. Switch to a xynotal with the enduro soft casing and my first ride out at a similar PSI (27) it was sketchy as heck and had almost no braking power due to lack of traction. I'm now running 24-25 psi in the xynotal depending where I'm riding and it has better stopping power and control but it's still not as good as the dissector which really surprised me since the dissector was always a stop gap since I could get it locally until I found a new slightly better rolling rear tire than a DHRII for the long rides and trail stuff. I have found the xynotal to improve as I wear it in more but I'm already undercutting a lot of the side lugs on it.

I have to agree with the person who said they feel kinda wooden and rough, if I let anymore air out I start getting into the rear trail cushcore quite a lot on the terrain out here with my riding style of pushing quite hard so I'd prefer to not let more out especially since the maxxis gripped way better even at higher psi. I think I'm going to go back to maxxis and checkout the highroller II next.
 
#7 ·
Hrodulf said:
My nerdy tire thoughts are about why tire manufacturers still develop multi compound tires.
Click to expand...
A few reasons. One reason most people may not know about is most cap tread compounds are not very tacky (doesn't stick well to other layers in the factory) so they extrude the tread with an extra undertread layer that will stick/adhere well to the casing. The other reason is rolling resistance. If you can replace some of that soft high-hysteresis cap tread with a more elastic compound (either underneath or in the center cap tread) then you can improve rolling resistance while still having a good cornering tire.
 
#8 ·
snow snakes said:
I wasn't up to my usual tire nerdery over the first half of the summer, as I committed early on to the WTB Macro as my race tire, and was pretty much just riding that.
Click to expand...
Would love to hear more of your thoughts on the macro (here or XC race tire thread) compared to other XC and "aggressive XC"/"light trail" tires. I haven't heard much in the way of comparisons on them.

Most of my tire nerdery thoughts can be found here: https://www.mtbr.com/threads/tire-rolling-resistance-study or in the race tire thread

Really interested in real world rolling resistance for trail tires, but there's not much out there
 
#9 ·
Since this thread is short so far, noting that personal thoughts are highly subjective, and more and more skewed by the growing population of ebikes. I would suggest that if you are chiming in with ebike experiences, that you disclose that so the reader can better interpret the comments. Ebikers tend not to be able to differentiate (or notice) boat anchor tires from more efficient ones.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
masterp2 said:
Purchased and mounted 2 PEACEKEEPER tires on, new, straight UST rims. I have gone through 20 tires in the last year, and several hundred over many years. These newbies are the significantly wobbly, wavy. I will be curious about what others are experiencing. Outside of that, RR is not bad (not the best for this category), weight is high, control is good, and volume is exceptional (tall and 2.45 after stretch). If they have good reliability, they would be worth purchase if they are not all wobbly.
Click to expand...
Mine doesn't seem to have any wobble at all, interesting to hear. I was very happy with the Peacekeeper as a rear for a backcountry ride yesterday - it's definitely a different class of tire than the Vigilante though, I'm leaning even more towards a high grip Peacekeeper for the front.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Hrodulf said:
My nerdy tire thoughts are about why tire manufacturers still develop multi compound tires.

And I wonder more and more on what is your max tire weight limit per tire for just training or touring ? Like downcountry or general trail riding. It seems more and more with certain brands that sub 900 gram general purpose / trail tires are hard to find in their portfolios for rides that include (a lot of) pedalling.
Click to expand...
I'll happily run 750-900 gram tires for racing or for riding in town on our more groomed "trail center" type trails - as things become more ebike friendly, rolling speed is key for me on the meatbike. Anything beyond that, I prefer the puncture resistance, damping, and support of a heavier tire. I'm about 185-190 geared up though, so YMMV. I'm also of the mindset that compound and tread design affects speed more than the actual rotational weight.

masterp2 said:
The bike world has figured out that the tire is faster if not repairing it trailside. This is also why Maxxis is losing market share. I have used 700g tires that are slower than other 900g tires. My practical limit is around 1000g for our dessert riding, at 200lbs and rocky tech. BTW, Pirelli (single compound) tires may be what you are looking for. Some of the best QC around.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, which Pirellis have you been running? I've been curious about those tires ever since trying the Scorpion XC on a REEB SST demo and coming away very impressed.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Mtbmandan said:
Would love to hear more of your thoughts on the macro (here or XC race tire thread) compared to other XC and "aggressive XC"/"light trail" tires. I haven't heard much in the way of comparisons on them.

Most of my tire nerdery thoughts can be found here: https://www.mtbr.com/threads/tire-rolling-resistance-study or in the race tire thread

Really interested in real world rolling resistance for trail tires, but there's not much out there
Click to expand...
I've recently spent time on T7 Ground Controls, T9 Purgatory, Vittoria Agarros, and Racing Ray/Ralph as comparison to the Macro. The most notable thing about the Macro to me is how voluminous they are (true to size or bigger), while being dead-on weight wise, fast, grippy, and predictable. I hated the Agarro, as I found it extremely squirrely and pressure sensitive, found the Schwalbes to be very fast but too fragile and narrow, and the GC was ok when paired to the Purg out front, but a little unpredictable cornering and braked poorly. My only complaints to level at the Macros come up in rocky/loose terrain that no XC tire excels in. Now that I've swapped to the High Grip version up front, they might be XC perfection.
 
#13 ·
snow snakes said:
I've recently spent time on T7 Ground Controls, T9 Purgatory, Vittoria Agarros, and Racing Ray/Ralph as comparison to the Macro. The most notable thing about the Macro to me is how voluminous they are (true to size or bigger), while being dead-on weight wise, fast, grippy, and predictable. I hated the Agarro, as I found it extremely squirrely and pressure sensitive, found the Schwalbes to be very fast but too fragile and narrow, and the GC was ok when paired to the Purg out front, but a little unpredictable cornering and braked poorly. My only complaints to level at the Macros come up in rocky/loose terrain that no XC tire excels in. Now that I've swapped to the High Grip version up front, they might be XC perfection.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that's a great list of comparison tires. Which schwalbe casing did you find fragile? Also probably the first negative review of the GC I've seen, but everyone seems to compare it to a fast trak, instead of another manufacturer or more "trail"ish tire.

Another intrusive tire thought I've had is trying to come up with a crowd-sourced "master" ranking of tires from XC to DH in different categories (e.g. have a ranked-choice poll for straight line braking traction, predictability in loose-over-hard or mud, cornering grip), but it would be a hard survey for formulate, and further confused by all the different widths, casings, compounds, model year differences, and diameters. But it's pretty hard to compare tire when most have been on one or two tires in the same category ever and may have very different conditions.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Since the thread is
Mtbmandan said:
Thanks, that's a great list of comparison tires. Which schwalbe casing did you find fragile? Also probably the first negative review of the GC I've seen, but everyone seems to compare it to a fast trak, instead of another manufacturer or more "trail"ish tire.

Another intrusive tire thought I've had is trying to come up with a crowd-sourced "master" ranking of tires from XC to DH in different categories (e.g. have a ranked-choice poll for straight line braking traction, predictability in loose-over-hard or mud, cornering grip), but it would be a hard survey for formulate, and further confused by all the different widths, casings, compounds, model year differences, and diameters. But it's pretty hard to compare tire when most have been on one or two tires in the same category ever and may have very different conditions.
Click to expand...
The Ray/Ralph were Super Race casing - basically see-through. Super fast, but basically tissue paper. Yeah, I could see the GC being fine as an XC tire, but the cornering knobs are extremely lacking as a light-trail rear tire.
 
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Discussion starter · #16 ·
TandemBear said:
"Light/HighGrip?"

Riiiight.

And this compares to their other "Heavy/LowGrip" model they offer?

Marketing hype.
Click to expand...
I guess you're most likely trolling, but WTB offers many of their tires in "light" and "tough" casings (weight savings vs. puncture protection) and "fast rolling" vs "high grip " compounds (rolling speed and durability vs. traction). Tough/Fast Rolling tends to work great for rear tires on bigger bikes, light/fast rolling is awesome for XC tires, and light/high grip is usually great for any front tire.
 
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#17 ·
masterp2 said:
Since this thread is short so far, noting that personal thoughts are highly subjective, and more and more skewed by the growing population of ebikes. I would suggest that if you are chiming in with ebike experiences, that you disclose that so the reader can better interpret the comments. Ebikers tend not to be able to differentiate (or notice) boat anchor tires from more efficient ones.
Click to expand...
No clue how being on an eMTB or a regular bike makes a big difference for tires. I run the exact same tires on my SS, my geared 140/160 squish, and my 140/170 eMTB. My eMTB weighs about 6lbs more than my squish, so that is about nothing on tires...since total weight of bike/ride is @ 250lbs. There is a much larger weight difference between my SS and my geared bike (nearly 10lbs)...so does that mean people on squishy bikes don't understand tires like hardtail riders do? Almost everyone I know who rides eMTB also rides regular bikes, and has been riding for decades. Crazy how people make pointless generalizations.

I ride the same tires on all bikes because terrain and riding style are what matter...NOT the type of bike. I have a mix of front tires so I can swap between regular trail and aggressive trail at will based on what I want to ride on a given day.
 
#18 ·
I am not a fan of heavy casings. Line choice and weight distribution allow running lighter tires on rough terrain. Unless you are smashing hardcore terrain like an Enduro or DH racer, are you getting the max performance out of those casings? Traction and efficiency improve when your tires can deflect over obstacles instead of pinging off them. My buddy picked up my favorite aggressive tire (Vittoria Mazza) and HATED IT...he said it was ridiculously stiff and unforgiving, and even at serious discount it sucked. I told him to try the regular casing instead of the Enduro...completely different experience for him. FWIW, I've raced Enduro and XC on both hardtails and squishy bikes, done plenty of park laps, love rocky chunky terrain and big jumps, and ride an eMTB. Even as an aggressive 205lbs (this AM) rider, have never had sidewall issues with non-Enduro/DD/Heavy casings. I briefly ran inserts and couldn't stand them.

I also prefer to run smaller block tighter spaced tires (Vittoria Agarro) over aggressive mini-dirtbike tires because they seem to hook up better on loose over hard and rocky SoCal terrain, but I do jump to aggressive tires (Mazzas) depending on what I am doing. Even at bike parks, on groomed terrain the lighter and faster tires feel better, and they can handle all but the worst landings or poor line choices fine.
 
#19 ·
snow snakes said:
I'll happily run 750-900 gram tires for racing or for riding in town on our more groomed "trail center" type trails - as things become more ebike friendly, rolling speed is key for me on the meatbike. Anything beyond that, I prefer the puncture resistance, damping, and support of a heavier tire. I'm about 185-190 geared up though, so YMMV. I'm also of the mindset that compound and tread design affects speed more than the actual rotational weight.



Out of curiosity, which Pirellis have you been running? I've been curious about those tires ever since trying the Scorpion XC on a REEB SST demo and coming away very impressed.
Click to expand...
when I was a roadie it was back in the skinny/firm tire days. I would run 23mm slicks at 125 PSI...fast as hell until they weren't. Same with mtn bikes back then...1.95 was considered a great fast option. Now people know that softer tires that conform are actually faster since they don't deflect off every imperfection (they just roll right over the small ones) and wider tires give you a better footprint for cornering speed and rough terrain traction. I remember the first time I showed up on trail with a 2.35 Ritchey zMax WCS and people thought it was MASSIVE. Current options for me are 2.4 to 2.6 depending on the use case. Going too light in the pursuit of speed will ultimately lead to reliability and traction issues. I loved the Vittoria Syerra DC tires for ripping singletrack, but they were a great example of too little tire to support the me/my riding style.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Muse MTB said:
when I was a roadie it was back in the skinny/firm tire days. I would run 23mm slicks at 125 PSI...fast as hell until they weren't. Same with mtn bikes back then...1.95 was considered a great fast option. Now people know that softer tires that conform are actually faster since they don't deflect off every imperfection (they just roll right over the small ones) and wider tires give you a better footprint for cornering speed and rough terrain traction. I remember the first time I showed up on trail with a 2.35 Ritchey zMax WCS and people thought it was MASSIVE. Current options for me are 2.4 to 2.6 depending on the use case. Going too light in the pursuit of speed will ultimately lead to reliability and traction issues. I loved the Vittoria Syerra DC tires for ripping singletrack, but they were a great example of too little tire to support the me/my riding style.
Click to expand...
It is astonishing to me how fast the Schwalbe radials are downhill, exactly because of that. I might have to try even more pressure in them to see if it improves the uphill side of things. I generally prefer faster rolling rear tires with a tougher casing, and grippy front tires with a lighter casing, so the loss of the Tough/Fast rolling WTB Trail Boss has left a serious void for me.
 
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snow snakes
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