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#141 ·
jrob300 said:
I was flabbergasted at the response. Especially if someone on the team knew that Van Aert was in the break. They risk just throwing away the whole Giro. And.... as it turned out. They did.
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I think Del Toro was right on the limit and felt that if he set pace or counter attacked to bridge, Carapaz would go over the top of him and he would shed time like crazy, maybe costing him the podium. On every long climb in the final week Del Toro looked like he was at his limit.
 
#142 ·
LMN said:
I think Del Toro was right on the limit and felt that if he set pace or counter attacked to bridge, Carapaz would go over the top of him and he would shed time like crazy, maybe costing him the podium. On every long climb in the final week Del Toro looked like he was at his limit.
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Del Toro fairly easily responded to each of Carapaz's attacks. He seemed like he had what it would take to hold a steady effort to hang with Yates. Del Toro's tactics were probably also very disappointing to Carapaz. He probably couldn't believe what was happening. Letting Yates go traditionally would have helped Carapaz by forcing Del Toro to chase.
 
#143 ·
Disregarding any knowledge of any previous MTB experience, with current road pros do you think would make good XCO riders? Lightish climbers who are also explosive? Carapaz seems like he might, maybe Skjelmose? I bet Thibau Nys could MTB.
 
#145 · (Edited)
One handed wheelie!? SO WHAT!
Doesn't make any difference racing.
Lots of riders spend their youth doing "10,000 hours" of flatland skills, but can't corner at speed on irregular and loose/slippery surfaces.
Look at skiers for example, ski racers spend their "10,000 hours" perfecting just turning left and right on groomed surfaces, and aerialists are notoriously bad at "just skiing" on snow (they spend their 10,000 hours on the trampoline, foam pits and water jumps).
And cyclo-cross cornering skills are different than mountain bike cornering skills. Cyclo-cross corners are taken at a narrow range of speeds/soil conditions/terrain and are more forgiving of mistakes, if you slime out a corner you can typically just put a foot down, or usually at worst*, lose 10 seconds picking yourself out of the mud. But mistakes mountain bike cornering often really hurt, so it is a much different mental/fear game, and recovery skills must be crazy good once you lose the line or get twitched in the rocks and roots.

Pogacar and vanDerPoel are over 25 years old. Even if they quit road and cross, and trained only mtn bike, they would never be as good at basic mtn bike skills as some kid that grew up in a mountain bike town, but would get good enough to complete one lap without crashing.


* unless you a racing next to PFP
 
#146 ·
Well, I disagree. The only two (former) mountain bike pros I have a vague connection to also didn't mountain bike as kids. A high school classmate of mine was a road pro who got 6th at Worlds in mountain biking (I'll give you courses were less technical back then). My GF and her little sister's childhood friend was a cross country skier who was only good at a non-Olympic event (50K), so she tried mountain biking and did that for a decade (and got some World Cup starts, has beaten Haley Batten).

Not mountain biking, but I taught myself cross country skiing, which is highly technical (see Kenyan skiers at the Olympics for a laugh) at age 30 with zero coaching help. Within 3 years, I got to where, in the rare times where my skis were not terrible gliding compared to the top guys, I was close enough to the NCAA skiers and "pros" trying to make the Olympics that I could see slotting in right with them if I were in their training programs and had their fleet of skis and waxing. I was doing this off no training program, no rollerskiing, just my habitual level of everyday running, skiing, and biking (which combined was a lot of hours though 750 to 1000 hours a year).
 
#148 · (Edited)
Anyway the point is with respect to the 10,000 hour rule from Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers (it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to achieve world-class expertise in any field, including sports). Although, some critics argue that the 10,000 hour rule focuses on quantity over quality, neglecting the importance of deliberate practice, effective coaching, and other factors that contribute to skill development.
With all that in mind, I would say that the closer the new skill is to your "10,000 hour" skill, the quicker you will perfect the new skill. Acrobatic or "flatland BMX" skills are usually perfected in less variable and more predictable environments. Whereas, mountain bike racing at speed on wet roots, rock gardens or other natural features, requires way more intuition, experience and ability to jazz-up different recovery moves on the fly. Some sport other than road or cyclo cross that requires more ability to react to unpredictable conditions and to make linked recoveries, might be a better background skill to learning mtb race skills (maybe a Hard Enduro Moto racer, rally racer, or by using a time machine a DH ski racer or mogul/hotdog skier from the 1970s, might learn mtb skills quicker).
 
#149 ·
woodsloop said:
Well, I disagree. The only two (former) mountain bike pros I have a vague connection to also didn't mountain bike as kids. A high school classmate of mine was a road pro who got 6th at Worlds in mountain biking (I'll give you courses were less technical back then). My GF and her little sister's childhood friend was a cross country skier who was only good at a non-Olympic event (50K), so she tried mountain biking and did that for a decade (and got some World Cup starts, has beaten Haley Batten).

Not mountain biking, but I taught myself cross country skiing, which is highly technical (see Kenyan skiers at the Olympics for a laugh) at age 30 with zero coaching help. Within 3 years, I got to where, in the rare times where my skis were not terrible gliding compared to the top guys, I was close enough to the NCAA skiers and "pros" trying to make the Olympics that I could see slotting in right with them if I were in their training programs and had their fleet of skis and waxing. I was doing this off no training program, no rollerskiing, just my habitual level of everyday running, skiing, and biking (which combined was a lot of hours though 750 to 1000 hours a year).
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That hasn't been my experience.

My wife entered the sport relatively late (18 years old). She worked hard, really hard, had great mentorship and had tremendous sucess in the sport. In her day she was one of the strongest descenders on the WC circuit, but at that time everybody had entered the sport late. She is still fast, and according to Strava at the age of 45 is a actually descending faster than she did at the peak of her career.

But when it comes to following the juniors she now coaches on the descents she at her absolute limit and being dropped. These "kids" who grew up riding mountain bikes, grew up being coached how to ride mountain bikes are incredibly fast.

I am not saying it is impossible to pick it up later, Jen Jackson is incredibly technically skilled and didn't really start racing bikes until 22. But Jen works incredibly hard at her technical skills, she coached by Jared Graves and her boyfriend is the technical coach Giant factory (XC and DH). And despite all those years of hard work, there are Juniors who are pushing her on the descends.
 
#151 · (Edited)
Swimmer said:
Would be interesting to find out if the team was also making the same mistake in judgement. Del Toro and Yates weren't that far apart in GC. Watching that unfold right after Yates' attack was starting to stick I was thinking Pogocar wouldn't be letting Yates head off into the sunset.
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Turns out the team car warned him to keep an eye on Yates. I think you can chalk this one up to inexperience. Too bad.

UAE DS reveals communication with Isaac del Toro on Finestre: "We tried to encourage him to keep an eye on Yates as well"

LMN said:
I think Del Toro was right on the limit and felt that if he set pace or counter attacked to bridge, Carapaz would go over the top of him and he would shed time like crazy, maybe costing him the podium. On every long climb in the final week Del Toro looked like he was at his limit.
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Yeah.... I don't think he was cooked. He covered every one of Carapz's moves and he did it in a steady, measured way so he wouldn't blow. He'll never make this mistake again and likely neither will his DS.
 
#152 ·
jrob300 said:
Turns out the team car warned him to keep an eye on Yates. I think you can chalk this one up to inexperience. Too bad.

UAE DS reveals communication with Isaac del Toro on Finestre: "We tried to encourage him to keep an eye on Yates as well"
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Watch Baldato on video www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXDENwMncDw

He's super weasly, trying to save his job. They never told him to chase yates, they said once, halfway up the climb, "maybe keep an eye on yates" and follow carapaz. That team is so political, I think everyone but pogacar is scared to think for themselves.

They should have said "if you go over the top more than 20 seconds behind yates and don't catch him before the descent opens up you will lose the Giro because Van Aert will put two minutes into you." If carapaz dropped him and yates he still could have worked with van aert to catch him. In hindsight, this is apparent. In the moment, it was very "WTF?"
 
#153 ·
Gilarider said:
Watch Baldato on video www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXDENwMncDw

He's super weasly, trying to save his job. They never told him to chase yates, they said once, halfway up the climb, "maybe keep an eye on yates" and follow carapaz. That team is so political, I think everyone but pogacar is scared to think for themselves.

They should have said "if you go over the top more than 20 seconds behind yates and don't catch him before the descent opens up you will lose the Giro because Van Aert will put two minutes into you." If carapaz dropped him and yates he still could have worked with van aert to catch him. In hindsight, this is apparent. In the moment, it was very "WTF?"
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Did UAE (or EF for that matter) have anyone in the break? That was the first mistake, letting Visma plant a nuke out front for a potential end game.
 
#154 ·
LMN said:
I am not saying it is impossible to pick it up later, Jen Jackson is incredibly technically skilled and didn't really start racing bikes until 22. But Jen works incredibly hard at her technical skills, she coached by Jared Graves and her boyfriend is the technical coach Giant factory (XC and DH). And despite all those years of hard work, there are Juniors who are pushing her on the descends.
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Well, I thought really working at it was assumed in the question. Pogi being pushed on the descents would still destroy everyone after working on his tech skills.
 
#155 ·
jrob300 said:
Did UAE (or EF for that matter) have anyone in the break? That was the first mistake, letting Visma plant a nuke out front for a potential end game.
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Yes UAE messed that up too, either put someone in the break or keep the break within about 5 minutes. But not seeing what is going on once Yates got away is worse.
 
#158 ·
woodsloop said:
Not mountain biking, but I taught myself cross country skiing, which is highly technical (see Kenyan skiers at the Olympics for a laugh) at age 30 with zero coaching help. Within 3 years, I got to where, in the rare times where my skis were not terrible gliding compared to the top guys, I was close enough to the NCAA skiers and "pros" trying to make the Olympics that I could see slotting in right with them if I were in their training programs and had their fleet of skis and waxing. I was doing this off no training program, no rollerskiing, just my habitual level of everyday running, skiing, and biking (which combined was a lot of hours though 750 to 1000 hours a year).
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Considering I spent big part of my life in and around xc skiing World cup, and that I still spend plenty of time on xc skis, I can tell you that this is really not possible ;) Xc skiing is sport where technique is way more important then xc mtb, and it makes huge difference. If you think you were "close" to people competing for Olympics spots without years and years of technique drills, and then even without any proper training plan, then you are nicely said, delusional. Sure fleet of fast skis and proper waxing is big deal, but you can have Klaebo skis and I can bet there's no way you will keep up with me (and I'm 2 decades away from WC level nowadays) on normal terrain (those 20 or 30 meters of super steep climbs where it's really just pure power and no glide are different). I don't want to say anything bad, but honestly, I have never seen a single person with good xc skiing technique that doesn't have years of racing training behind him/her. And I really doubt you are such exception ;)
 
#159 · (Edited)
primoz said:
Xc skiing is sport where technique is way more important then xc mtb, and it makes huge difference.
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That's exactly why I brought it up (and I know LMN has said he skis).

primoz said:
If you think you were "close" to people competing for Olympics spots without years and years of technique drills, and then even without any proper training plan, then you are nicely said, delusional.
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OK, how about actually beating? My third winter on race skis with zero coaching, zero roller skiing, no training plan, I beat the top high school skier in Alaska (arguably the single most competitive state in the US for juniors) in a ski race one week after he won the state 'skimeister' title (state champion, lowest combined time in an individual classic race and an individual freestyle race). Edit: just checked, and Alaska as a region won the title for the best region in the US at Junior Nationals that year.

primoz said:
I don't want to say anything bad, but honestly, I have never seen a single person with good xc skiing technique that doesn't have years of racing training behind him/her. And I really doubt you are such exception ;)
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I have 25 winters experience now😉 including racing the first dozen years or so. My technique wasn't great back then, I would agree, but I could get around. I skied daily with my girlfriend, who came to Alaska to ski and was teammates with Kikkan Randall when Kikkan was better known/had better success as a runner (my GF's first year here before moving to NCAA skiing to get college paid for). We had on the VCR on at home continually running videos of the Lillehammer and Nagano Olympics to study technique. The people I spent the most time with were all skiers/ski coaches who had skied on the World Cup and/or the Olympics. My best friend is a Norwegian former World Cup skier who coaches college and also went back to Norway to coach juniors. It rubbed off somehow.
 
#160 · (Edited)
Still, would you predict that a speed skater with a high FTP and ability to back flip on skis, with a little specific training, beat you in an XC Ski race, yet alone win a World Cup (maybe if the race was just across a frozen lake)
Being able to do one-handed wheelies and other Flatland tricks is not a good predictor of developing World Cup level mountain bike race skills.
While van derPoel was practicing Flatland tricks as a kid in the Belgium and Netherlands, Tom Pidcock* was riding mountain bikes in the UK, which probably has more difficult, unpredictable and variable soil/moisture conditions than the North Shore in BC (tires on ground/skis on snow skills beat aerial and circus tricks any day)

*According to Google. Tom's first mtb race was at age 7 and Mathieu's was at age 21
 
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