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If you think biking has gotten crazy, take a look at the wakeboat world. Malibu launched a new brand, Axis, in 2009, that was supposed to be an entry level boat. I bougth one in 2011 for $42,500. The top of the line Malibus were pusing $70K or so? Other brands have followed suit with the entry level sub brand or at least model lines that are more "value" or entry level. You can't get a new Mastercraft for under $180K......and that's there "entry" level line. Their top line ones are now well north of $300K.

ALso used to do a lot of track days in the early 2010's. There were a few new Porsches (it was Porsche club mostly) that were showing up, there'd be a 911T or a GT3. But most cars were older 944's, Boxsters, 80's era and older 911's converted to track cars. Nowadays every newbie shows up in a $300K 911 of some shape, form, or fashion. GT3's used to be well under $100K, now they are pushing $300K.

I don't know where all the money is coming from, but there is a sizable group of very high income people that weren't around a decade ago.
 
If you think biking has gotten crazy, take a look at the wakeboat world. Malibu launched a new brand, Axis, in 2009, that was supposed to be an entry level boat. I bougth one in 2011 for $42,500. The top of the line Malibus were pusing $70K or so? Other brands have followed suit with the entry level sub brand or at least model lines that are more "value" or entry level. You can't get a new Mastercraft for under $180K......and that's there "entry" level line. Their top line ones are now well north of $300K.

ALso used to do a lot of track days in the early 2010's. There were a few new Porsches (it was Porsche club mostly) that were showing up, there'd be a 911T or a GT3. But most cars were older 944's, Boxsters, 80's era and older 911's converted to track cars. Nowadays every newbie shows up in a $300K 911 of some shape, form, or fashion. GT3's used to be well under $100K, now they are pushing $300K.

I don't know where all the money is coming from, but there is a sizable group of very high income people that weren't around a decade ago.
In Canada in 2016 the average familty net worth was 300K now it is almost a million. I don't know if the US has had the same growth in net-worth but in Canada peole have a lot more access to finance expensive purchases.
 
If you look around at the cycling industry, it's not full of millionaires. Most people working in are there for their passion. Even with the "expensive prices", I don't think anyone is "getting rich". I suspect that's just how much it cost to make these parts.

Compared to motorbikes, there's much smaller batch sizes for manufacturing, this is not just because they sell less bikes than motorbikes, but also cause bikes have 4 or 5 sizes for each model, where a motorbike will have one. This means more tooling, more moulds, and therefore more expense. I also suspect motorcycles don't have as much carbon and CNC'd parts. They likely use lower cost manufacturing techniques.

I find the quality of most high end mountain bike components amazing.
 
Discussion starter · #46 · (Edited)
Pricing is often more relevant to the market than actual manufacturing costs. MTB tires do not need to cost 100$ but the market will pay such prices so that's what we are charged.
That’s mostly not true. Unless there’s no competition. Because at least one of the companies would recognize that, lower their prices to undercut the competition and sell a crap ton more tires than the competition. Most companies as large as a tire company employ a price strategist. Their job is to find the pricing sweet spot. That number is based on a number of factors, including what the competition is pricing their goods at. It’s a sliding scaled based on the profits needed by the company and at what price will sell the most units. It is advantageous to try and keep prices low and sell more units. Supplier prices are lower per unit with higher volume orders. AKA: Economies of Scale.
 
That’s mostly not true. Unless there’s no competition. Because at least one of the companies would recognize that, lower their prices to undercut the competition and sell a crap ton more tires than the competition. Most companies as large as a tire company employ a price strategist. Their job is to find the pricing sweet spot. That number is based on a number of factors, including what the competition is pricing their goods at. It’s a sliding scaled based on the profits needed by the company and at what price will sell the most units. It is advantageous to try and keep prices low and sell more units. Supplier prices are lower per unit with higher volume orders.
Marginal Price is a real.

In mountain biking we have a lot of different manufactures and a lot of different model options. I am sure no one is any operating any where near the optimal production volume.
 
In Canada in 2016 the average familty net worth was 300K now it is almost a million. I don't know if the US has had the same growth in net-worth but in Canada peole have a lot more access to finance expensive purchases.
Um, wow.

US average family net worth is about $1M, but the more telling number is median, at about $200k. The average number being skewed by absurd wealth-inequality.
 
In Canada in 2016 the average familty net worth was 300K now it is almost a million. I don't know if the US has had the same growth in net-worth but in Canada peole have a lot more access to finance expensive purchases.
It has roughly doubled in the US in the same time period. However, there are very likely large caveats with that. First is that the median and the mean have been growing further apart, meaning the average is being pulled up by a smaller number of people who have an increasingly larger share of wealth (probably the same people buying $300K Mastercrafts and Porsches!). Second is that a lot of that wealth is because of the housing market, which basically means that it is not accessible - if one sells their house to cash in on the increased equity, getting into another house would consume all of that gain. Third, net worth also comprises the value of retirement accounts (mostly stocks), which is also inaccessible.

Which is really all to say that it isn't average folks who are buying these things. At least that is my belief.
 
Um, wow.

US average family net worth is about $1M, but the more telling number is median, at about $200k. The average number being skewed by absurd wealth-inequality.
I think Canadain median is about 600K now. We don't have the same amount of absurbly wealthy people.
 
One thing this points out. We don't want ALL manufacturing jobs back in the US.

Carbon frame manufacturing is labor-intensive and involves some nasty chemicals, both from a worker-safety and more general environmental standpoint, ie waste disposal, etc.

To make carbon manufacturing even vaguely competitive with second- or third-world countries, we'd need to relax worker safety and environmental regulations and I'm not sure we really want to do that. I don't think even the most pro-business person really wants to go back to the environmental disaster that was late 19th/early 20th century America. Well, except for one or two exceptionally stupid ones who admire the "Gilded Age."

Carbon manufacturing may not be the classic case, but there are a lot of foreign manufacturing jobs we really probably do not want back. It's not just a matter of the cost of consumer goods; those industries or sectors impose a lot of external costs that we don't want to bear.
 
I find the quality of most high end mountain bike components amazing.
I find the quality to be inscrutable, almost random. In the last year, I've had the following experiences:

Conti Cross King Puregrip (half the price of the black chili ones) - superb tire. $30 tire that is right up there with the $100 tires.
Conti Cross King Black Chili - tread was wobbly from the box.
Zrace M2 X1 brakes - $55 a set on aliexpress. Look better than XTR, stop the same, no problems. Superb brake.
BTLOS carbon spokes - you can't even buy these from 1st world companies. Superb product.
Hayes T2 brakes - $700 a set, too short pad clearance, bleeding is very annoying.
Shimanot XTR brakes - $500 a set, leaky piston seals.
Extralite Hyperboost 3r - $650 a set, deliver. Superb product.

Sometimes quality is expensive; sometimes it's not.
 
It has roughly doubled in the US in the same time period. However, there are very likely large caveats with that. First is that the median and the mean have been growing further apart, meaning the average is being pulled up by a smaller number of people who have an increasingly larger share of wealth (probably the same people buying $300K Mastercrafts and Porsches!). Second is that a lot of that wealth is because of the housing market, which basically means that it is not accessible - if one sells their house to cash in on the increased equity, getting into another house would consume all of that gain. Third, net worth also comprises the value of retirement accounts (mostly stocks), which is also inaccessible.

Which is really all to say that it isn't average folks who are buying these things. At least that is my belief.
My guess is you, like me, are financially conservative. We live off our income, not the growth in housing value and stocks. But we don't have to be and many are not.

I could easily run a line of credit off my house and buy a new high end bike every year for the rest of my life. That would impact how much my daughter will get in inheritence but it wouldn't really negatively impact me. Now I am highly allegic to debt, so I will not do that.
 
One thing this points out. We don't want ALL manufacturing jobs back in the US.

Carbon frame manufacturing is labor-intensive and involves some nasty chemicals, both from a worker-safety and more general environmental standpoint, ie waste disposal, etc.

To make carbon manufacturing even vaguely competitive with second- or third-world countries, we'd need to relax worker safety and environmental regulations and I'm not sure we really want to do that. I don't think even the most pro-business person really wants to go back to the environmental disaster that was late 19th/early 20th century America.

Carbon manufacturing may not be the classic case, but there are a lot of foreign manufacturing jobs we really probably do not want back. It's not just a matter of the cost of consumer goods; those industries or sectors impose a lot of external costs that we don't want to bear.
You mean you don't want your kids to grow up to make plastics in factories belching out toxic chemicals into our air and water? All so we can pay 5x more than what we are used to?
 
You mean you don't want your kids to grow up to make plastics in factories belching out toxic chemicals into our air and water? All so we can pay 5x more than what we are used to?
Crazy talk.

All that being said, We Are One produces Carbon wheels in Kamloops BC. They are a great local producer who makes a competatively priced high quality product. Even with the relatively high cost of doing business in Canada compared to the US.
 
Crazy talk.

All that being said, We Are One produces Carbon wheels in Kamloops BC. They are a great local producer who makes a competatively priced high quality product. Even with the relatively high cost of doing business in Canada compared to the US.
That's because carbon rims are so insanely inflated we can make them domestically and compete on pricing. Canada/USA can not compete with Asia in most markets.
 
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