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Noob question...short chain life? (Shimano M6100)

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3_Dimensional

· Registered Valley Kook
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1,336 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
I check my chain length and it's stretched to about 1/16" per 36 links, aka 1 part in 288, aka 0.35% after only about 250 miles or so. No it's not 0.5%, and it still shifts ok, but it's enough to make some noise and make me think I might be wearing other things out faster. (Reminds me of this thread: https://www.mtbr.com/threads/chain-...ks-of-frustration-it-was-the-damn-chain.1235478/?post_id=16359206#post-16359206). It's a full Deore 12 speed drivetrain with a OneUp Switch 30t oval ring. I used Boeshield T9 for the first half, then fully cleaned it with degreaser and switched to Muc Off C3 dry lube. I wasn't very good about lubricating, I probably went 15 rides at a time when I was using the Boeshield, and with the Muc Off I've been going maybe 5 or 6 rides between applications. (For context, my rides are pretty quick usually, maybe 8 miles on average). I don't ride in the mud and I don't have tons of dust flying around everywhere either. It definitely isn't building up in my drivetrain. I don't shift under high load--I spin up, soft pedal through the shift as the bike slows down, and then put down the power after it shifts. I don't see a problem with the chainline, I did everything by the book and I end up with a straight chainline around the 5th largest cassette cog or so.
So, here's my real question: am I doing something wrong that is making the chain wear out fast? Do I just need to clean and lube more often? Or do I need to get an XT chain next time around?
(Shameless plug, I'm trying to wait on the chain until I can trade my large Canfield Yelli Screamy for a similar XL so that I don't have to mess with chain length twice... hit me up if you want to size down!)
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
glader60 said:
Under lubing a cheap chain is just asking for fast wear. Buy a XTR or XT chain, use a wax lube and lube it often enough and it should last many thousand miles.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Would that apply to a Deore chain too if I lube it after every ride? I almost never ride in the wet so the corrosion-resistant treatment won't help me, but will the XT or XTR last longer assuming the same lubrication (after each ride)?
 
#4 ·
Hi 3d

I’m 90% sure that your components aren’t the problem (including the chain).
BUT: were all of the other components new when this chain was installed?
AND: is the chainring compatible with Shimano 12 speed?

Please tell us more about the noise you mentioned

Re: lubes: T9 is sort of ok. MucOff is not ok. Using a bad lube is probably a major part of the problem.

Lack of cleaning is probably part of the problem. What’s your cleaning schedule?

Not lubing frequently enough is probably part of the problem. What triggers you to relube? Do you ride the bike with the chain squeaking?

There’s a lot more that can be said about lubes, but, getting to the bottom of equipment is the first step.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
PuddleDuck said:
Hi 3d

I’m 90% sure that your components aren’t the problem (including the chain).
BUT: were all of the other components new when this chain was installed?
AND: is the chainring compatible with Shimano 12 speed?
Click to expand...
Thanks for the helpful reply! That's what I thought too, it's a very normal setup and should last way longer than this. Yes the OneUp Switch ring is "compatible" with both Shimano and Sram 12 speed, but that may just mean that it's not really compatible with either (?).

PuddleDuck said:
Please tell us more about the noise you mentioned
Click to expand...
Imagine a mild grating noise. "Grating" makes it sound really bad and it's not like that, it's almost just like a normal drivetrain noise but much louder. It has never squeaked (except for my derailleur clutch, which squeaks every time the chainring clocks to the wider part). I'm not sure what squeaking would mean but I always make sure it shifts perfectly all the way up and down the cassette. I'm definitely not rubbing the links against the cog next to the one I'm in.

PuddleDuck said:
Re: lubes: T9 is sort of ok. MucOff is not ok. Using a bad lube is probably a major part of the problem.

Lack of cleaning is probably part of the problem. What’s your cleaning schedule?

Not lubing frequently enough is probably part of the problem. What triggers you to relube? Do you ride the bike with the chain squeaking?

There’s a lot more that can be said about lubes, but, getting to the bottom of equipment is the first step.
Click to expand...
I need to research lubes. Is there something fundamentally wrong with Muc Off C3? I did a quick search and didn't turn up anything but the info is probably in there somewhere. BikePerfect seems to like it but crucially they didn't say a word about how long your drivetrain will last with it, probably because it's too much work for them to ride one drivetrain into the ground with one lube to test it.
Nothing really triggers me to relube other than remembering that it's been a few rides since I did. At that point, I wipe down the chain and then apply lube to the rollers, then wait several hours before riding so it can dry. In any case, I never see dirt building up on the drivetrain.
Hoping to avoid turning into one of those crock pot full of wax dudes but it might just end up happening.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
PuddleDuck said:
@3_Dimensional It's very important to know if all of the components were new when that chain was installed.

If not, then a worn cassette (especially) can prematurely wear out a chain
Click to expand...
Oh, yeah I guess I didn't answer that. Yes I bought the entire drivetrain brand new at the same time.
 
#9 ·
@3_Dimensional

We're progressing!
  • the chainring is compatible
  • the rest of the components were new when the chain was installed.

Thus,
we can 99.9% rule out components casuing premature wear
BUT
you should service the clutch...here's an article with great pics, that also shows servicing the rest of mech: NSMB.com - Shimano Derailleur Clutch Service
AND
  1. Does the grating only occur when pedalling?
  2. Does the grating occur in all gears?
  3. Does the sound change after lubing?
  4. Do the jockey wheels spin smoothly?
  5. Are the jockey wheels damaged?

This leaves us with:
  1. lube choice
  2. cleaning & reapplication (which relate to lube choice)


Re: lube choice

From ZFC's tests you'll find out that MucOff doesn't test well*.
His YouTube channel also features video's about them...they raise questions.
Zero Friction Cycling
...but his vids aren't the best place to start unless you want detailed info on a specific lube...and remembering that at one point he moved from writing reviews to doing video reviews.

*Out of interest re: rim tape, I compared MucOff's staffing profile to that of Silca & OneUp. TL;DR = MucOff is a marketing company.

There's a threshold question relatiang to what lubes will be suitable for you...
...are you willing to strip the chain of its factory grease before applying a lube?
(noting that Silca & UFO & others make 2-step, 10 minute products to do this)
 
#10 · (Edited)
Chains without fancy coatings last 600-1200 miles, IME. Nickel-plating + SILTEC at least doubles that (2200-3000, I'd say). Hard chromizing can double that again.

For measurable wear to happen, the factory lube needs to be consumed first then the coatings/surface-finishes. Once worn through, chain stretch can happen quite rapidly.

I advise to NOT remove the original factory lube on cheap chains. That alone can give several hundred miles of guaranteed life on cheap chains.

Personally, I just like to run drivetrains without swapping chains, until it starts skipping under torque beyond intolerable levels. Wax lubes can delay this longer than expected, IME (with Squirt lube). In fact, I had a NX drivetrain that skipped under torque on an emtb I bought 2nd hand, in the tallest gears. It actually stopped skipping in those gears after I lubed with wax. I know the wax is wearing off when it starts skipping again.

I have spare chains, chainrings, and cassettes ready. Ones that are quite inexpensive: $20 cues 10spd 11-39 cassette on ebay, $17 11spd (XT level) chain (same vendor, see Wheel and Sprocket), $20 104bcd chainring (e.g. SRAM Eagle steel). It'd make more sense to change the chain to give more life to $200+ cassettes, but not an inexpensive one.

I advise not bothering with chains below XT level, to any rider who racks up a lot of mileage. I didn't even go cheap on my singlespeed, going a long while before needing re-tensioning and also a long while before creaking under torque (presumably the sound of the chain reshaping the teeth on the sprockets).
 
#11 ·
Unfortunately, the angles in the chain-line 1x12 spd creates is part of the problem. Add grime and mud and see ya later chain. Poor chain-lines inherent with 1x12 create fast wear, loud noises and frustration in many I know running 1x12. Softer or cheaper metal in components makes it worse. The chains, rings and cogs take a beating right? Run a high quality CONNEX chain my friend. Higher quality cassette is also key. Hard metal ring(s) in front. Start all new with everything, THEN monitor your chain stretch to see if it is the chain that's bad. Or, you could run 2x10.😊
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
PuddleDuck said:
@3_Dimensional

We're progressing!
  • the chainring is compatible
  • the rest of the components were new when the chain was installed.

Thus,
we can 99.9% rule out components casuing premature wear
BUT
you should service the clutch...here's an article with great pics, that also shows servicing the rest of mech: NSMB.com - Shimano Derailleur Clutch Service
AND
  1. Does the grating only occur when pedalling?
  2. Does the grating occur in all gears?
  3. Does the sound change after lubing?
  4. Do the jockey wheels spin smoothly?
  5. Are the jockey wheels damaged?

This leaves us with:
  1. lube choice
  2. cleaning & reapplication (which relate to lube choice)


Re: lube choice

From ZFC's tests you'll find out that MucOff doesn't test well*.
His YouTube channel also features video's about them...they raise questions.
Zero Friction Cycling
...but his vids aren't the best place to start unless you want detailed info on a specific lube...and remembering that at one point he moved from writing reviews to doing video reviews.

*Out of interest re: rim tape, I compared MucOff's staffing profile to that of Silca & OneUp. TL;DR = MucOff is a marketing company.

There's a threshold question relatiang to what lubes will be suitable for you...
...are you willing to strip the chain of its factory grease before applying a lube?
(noting that Silca & UFO & others make 2-step, 10 minute products to do this)
Click to expand...
The jockey wheels are GTG, I checked them. The grating only occurs while pedaling, and the loudness is in proportion to the size of the cassette cog I'm in. I think that's because the chain is stretched, so on a big cog, when it contacts a tooth at the bottom of the cassette, it doesn't engage with the tooth at the top of the cassette, so it starts riding up, because the amount of stretch going halfway around a 51t is significant. In the 10t, given the same stretch percentage, the absolute amount of error between where the chain meets the top tooth is less, so it doesn't make nearly as much noise. At least that's my guess. I can visually see the chain riding up the cassette cogs in the easy gears but not the harder ones.
I'll have to lube and then get back to you on whether the sound changes after lubing.
 
#16 ·
bmwpowere36m3 said:
New chains are not 0%... many will measure 0.25% IME, so FYI.
Click to expand...
That's true for older ones. Newer ones do measure 0. Also, make sure that your chain checker is a good one e.g ruler, or a Pedros / Park 3 pointer

www.parktool.com

CC-4 Chain Checker

Our most accurate and versatile chain wear gauge, this go/no-go chain checker can determine whether any multi-speed chain is has enough wear to require replacement.
www.parktool.com www.parktool.com
Image
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
PuddleDuck said:
That's true for older ones. Newer ones do measure 0. Also, make sure that your chain checker is a good one e.g ruler, or a Pedros / Park 3 pointer

www.parktool.com

CC-4 Chain Checker

Our most accurate and versatile chain wear gauge, this go/no-go chain checker can determine whether any multi-speed chain is has enough wear to require replacement.
www.parktool.com www.parktool.com
View attachment 2131831
Click to expand...
I don't have a chain checker, I'm using a good quality tape measure instead. I measured 36 links of chain (nominally 18") starting from several different points in the chain. The nearly new Sram chain measured exactly 18" so I'm pretty confident this system is accurate. I make sure the chain is tight, then measure from pin to pin so I can get it lined up just right. If my micrometer caliper hadn't taken a dump I would be using that.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
ghettocruiser said:
If the chain was bought online, is there any chance it's fake?
Click to expand...
I bought the whole groupset at the same time rom the same seller and clearly none of the other components are fake, so it's probably down to chain lube, ZFC seemed to think that the Muc Off C3 lube that I use causes excessive and rapid chain wear.
 
#20 ·
Not uncommon for MTB chains to only last 500 miles even with proper lubing and cleaning. A couple of other factors:
  • Torque on chain increases wear usually meaning a 200+ rider will get half the chain life of a 100 lb rider since friction is proportional to force on the chain as a result of rider torque
  • Soil types make a massive difference. Soils with a lot of hard silica grit / sand will wear down a chain much quicker then loam
  • trail types. CO is known to kill chain life since every ride seems to be two hours up in granny gear (or the ones next to it) at full torque and 20 minutes down in the 11 tooth barely peddling. The three lowest gears will wear super fast while the higher gears barely show wear.
 
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