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#541 ·
Thanks @kapolczer for the shout outs and links to the reviews, I'm fresh off of testing both the Mara Pro PB and Nebbia while also having lots of experience with a Super Deluxe Air with the Linear (not XL) can. I've ridden the Fox X2, Fox Float X, and Ohlins TTX1 and TTX2 air shocks, but none of them on the Kavenz.

@Weirdo1 a lot of this will come down to what sort of feeling you like, but if I was spending my money, I'd go with the Mara Pro PB or TTX2 Air. The Mara Pro PB has a solid amount of damping range, my only gripe being that I find Manitou to be a little too heavy-handed with rebound damping...though I like faster-than-average rebound and only weigh 165 lbs. Ohlins is still my gold standard as far as just how much support you can get out of them without introducing harshness, but at your weight you may find the damping to be more than you'd like, and servicing Ohlins stuff is more costly and less user friendly than Manitou. While I haven't tried the TTX2 Air on my VHP 16, I have no doubts about it working very well — I'm actually hoping to track one down soon to round out an air shock shootout that I might be working on a bit this winter...

I won't restate too much about the Nebbia, but I have a hard time recommending it because of that air spring. It's a solid damper with lots of range, plus its nicely made, but Formula needs to revisit their air spring design. The RockShox SDU with the Linear air can worked well for me on the Kavenz, but I still couldn't get the amount of compression damping I wanted without the shock starting to feel a bit harsh.

All that said, my favorite shock on the VHP 16 is the Ohlins TTX22m.2. With my preference for high levels of compression damping, the TTX22m.2 balances having a ton of support while still feeling very grippy and supple. It seems to use just the right amount of travel all the time, and aside from having a bit of a top out clunk at faster rebound speeds, it is entirely fuss-free to live with.
 
#543 ·
I would recommend to have a look at the 14 instead of the 15, I like the geo on the 14 better. A bit slacker, and only 5mm less travel.

Just a tip,should be more capable than the 15 given geo... and only 5mm less travel in the rear, while running a 160mm up front same as the 15...
 
#544 ·
Weirdo1 said:
Hey, I’m getting a VHP15 or 16 (haven’t decided on the configuration yet, but I’m considering the 15 more). seems kind of weird.
Click to expand...
I have the shock mounts for the 15, 16 and 16MX. The 16 and 16MX are almost too low/slack for my local rocky trails ...too much fussing about pedal strikes. The actual number of strikes in not that great, but I feel like I do alter my riding to account for the possibility. The 15 eliminates that worry, but maybe too much so I just run the shock a bit more sagged. It's pretty easy and not too expensive to switch shock mounts.

I'm running the Intend-BC Hover Opt in all configurations (I have a stroke shortener for the 15 but have never used as the shock doesn't touch and my fork is set at 170. My original plan was to do an EXT Arma with the 180MX and a 180 fork but I honestly don't know if I need that now. I think the 160 with a 170 fork is all I will ever need, so I will like add an EXT Storia to the mix.
 
#545 ·
Jorgen said:
I would recommend to have a look at the 14 instead of the 15, I like the geo on the 14 better. A bit slacker, and only 5mm less travel.

Just a tip,should be more capable than the 15 given geo... and only 5mm less travel in the rear, while running a 160mm up front same as the 15...
Click to expand...
Thanks for your Input. I've ordered it with a 16MX Mount. So I can also ride a VHP14MX and also with 29er which would make the Geometry a bit more upright for my local trails.

And the 15 could also be run with a MX Setup to get it slacker theoretically. So I'm going to test a lot.
 
#546 ·
zhendo said:
Thanks @kapolczer for the shout outs and links to the reviews, I'm fresh off of testing both the Mara Pro PB and Nebbia while also having lots of experience with a Super Deluxe Air with the Linear (not XL) can. I've ridden the Fox X2, Fox Float X, and Ohlins TTX1 and TTX2 air shocks, but none of them on the Kavenz.

@Weirdo1 a lot of this will come down to what sort of feeling you like, but if I was spending my money, I'd go with the Mara Pro PB or TTX2 Air. The Mara Pro PB has a solid amount of damping range, my only gripe being that I find Manitou to be a little too heavy-handed with rebound damping...though I like faster-than-average rebound and only weigh 165 lbs. Ohlins is still my gold standard as far as just how much support you can get out of them without introducing harshness, but at your weight you may find the damping to be more than you'd like, and servicing Ohlins stuff is more costly and less user friendly than Manitou. While I haven't tried the TTX2 Air on my VHP 16, I have no doubts about it working very well — I'm actually hoping to track one down soon to round out an air shock shootout that I might be working on a bit this winter...

I won't restate too much about the Nebbia, but I have a hard time recommending it because of that air spring. It's a solid damper with lots of range, plus its nicely made, but Formula needs to revisit their air spring design. The RockShox SDU with the Linear air can worked well for me on the Kavenz, but I still couldn't get the amount of compression damping I wanted without the shock starting to feel a bit harsh.

All that said, my favorite shock on the VHP 16 is the Ohlins TTX22m.2. With my preference for high levels of compression damping, the TTX22m.2 balances having a ton of support while still feeling very grippy and supple. It seems to use just the right amount of travel all the time, and aside from having a bit of a top out clunk at faster rebound speeds, it is entirely fuss-free to live with.
Click to expand...
Hey, I didn‘t know you are that Zack from Blister. Thanks for the great reviews. Both on the shocks and also on the frame. It pretty much sold me on the frame, as I’m coming from a Banshee Phantom V3 and I’m in need for something with more travel, and also think the traits of a HP-Biwak be beneficial for my riding. But I don’t want a full out Enduro Battleship. Both in weight and in handling. Also I’m tinkering a lot on my bikes and when I get bored the N+1 urge gets pretty big so I want a flexible Plattform. The Kavenz was just logical it this point.
I’m running a SDU Coil right now on the banshee. Because I wanted it to be a small travel, bike with a lot of grip and ability to filter out the small chatter. And that really worked. But in terms of playfulness I think that setup relies a lot on the frames progression which I quickly get into because of the small travel. All in all that setup is actually really nice.

But back to the Kavenz I’m concerned that the increase in travel will mean that I will have to work more against the suspension when going to a coil. Or put differently that my input will be lost in the suspension and I’m getting to deep into travel on techy/steep stuff and therefore loose nimbleness. That’s why I thought of going towards an air shock. Although I know that an air shock has less midstroke support. That’s one question: is the playfulness of the Kavenz better with an air shock because of the progressivity or better with a coil shock because of its midstroke?

Dampeningwise I thought I prefer a far more open setup. Which might still be the case due to my weight. But you aren’t that much heavier so maybe it’s down to the shocks a rode. I ride the SDU Coil fully open because any increase in compression means an increase in harshness. Seeing that you rode the Mara in a more medium setting compressionwise I assume that there is enough range for me to not have tuned.

Also thanks on your info on the öhlins stuff. In terms of air shocks I’m pretty much sold on the Mara, as I can do a full service and tuning at home. The öhlins would be an interesting coil option for sure.
 
#547 ·
GlazedHam said:
I have the shock mounts for the 15, 16 and 16MX. The 16 and 16MX are almost too low/slack for my local rocky trails ...too much fussing about pedal strikes. The actual number of strikes in not that great, but I feel like I do alter my riding to account for the possibility. The 15 eliminates that worry, but maybe too much so I just run the shock a bit more sagged. It's pretty easy and not too expensive to switch shock mounts.

I'm running the Intend-BC Hover Opt in all configurations (I have a stroke shortener for the 15 but have never used as the shock doesn't touch and my fork is set at 170. My original plan was to do an EXT Arma with the 180MX and a 180 fork but I honestly don't know if I need that now. I think the 160 with a 170 fork is all I will ever need, so I will like add an EXT Storia to the mix.
Click to expand...
Interesting take, I've ordered the Bike with the 16MX Mount. Which could also be ridden with a 29" Wheel. This would make the Bike more upright and higher and also have different Kinematics than 16 and 15.

I will test the stuff out. But I think the more upright nature of the 15 will be appropriate for my more mellow and flowy hometrails. The Mullet will be when I visit my Girlfriend as she has access to far steeper and more technical trails.

The Hover would be a perfect pick in my books, as it's really customizable and really light. But it's also really expansive. I can't really justify spending 1,1K here in Germany for a Shock, when I could get a Mara Pro for 550 or the new SDU Air for 390.
 
#548 ·
Weirdo1 said:
Hey, I didn‘t know you are that Zack from Blister. Thanks for the great reviews. Both on the shocks and also on the frame. It pretty much sold me on the frame, as I’m coming from a Banshee Phantom V3 and I’m in need for something with more travel, and also think the traits of a HP-Biwak be beneficial for my riding. But I don’t want a full out Enduro Battleship. Both in weight and in handling. Also I’m tinkering a lot on my bikes and when I get bored the N+1 urge gets pretty big so I want a flexible Plattform. The Kavenz was just logical it this point.
I’m running a SDU Coil right now on the banshee. Because I wanted it to be a small travel, bike with a lot of grip and ability to filter out the small chatter. And that really worked. But in terms of playfulness I think that setup relies a lot on the frames progression which I quickly get into because of the small travel. All in all that setup is actually really nice.

But back to the Kavenz I’m concerned that the increase in travel will mean that I will have to work more against the suspension when going to a coil. Or put differently that my input will be lost in the suspension and I’m getting to deep into travel on techy/steep stuff and therefore loose nimbleness. That’s why I thought of going towards an air shock. Although I know that an air shock has less midstroke support. That’s one question: is the playfulness of the Kavenz better with an air shock because of the progressivity or better with a coil shock because of its midstroke?

Dampeningwise I thought I prefer a far more open setup. Which might still be the case due to my weight. But you aren’t that much heavier so maybe it’s down to the shocks a rode. I ride the SDU Coil fully open because any increase in compression means an increase in harshness. Seeing that you rode the Mara in a more medium setting compressionwise I assume that there is enough range for me to not have tuned.

Also thanks on your info on the öhlins stuff. In terms of air shocks I’m pretty much sold on the Mara, as I can do a full service and tuning at home. The öhlins would be an interesting coil option for sure.
Click to expand...
I owned both a Banshee Titan and Phantom V3, fantastic bikes. I don't subscribe to the desire that some folks in the Banshee forum seem to have (or used to have) around turning the Phantom into a 36lb baby enduro bike as I think that you'll never get around the limitations of 115mm of travel, so I think you're on the right track with finding a longer travel rig rather than turning a small travel rig into something its not.

To your air vs. coil question, the basic difference is that the air shock will feel like it has greater support early in the travel and very late in the travel, whereas the coil shock has a more substantial midstroke and is more linear overall. If playfulness is what you're after, the higher progression of an air shock will suit you, and the fact that the Mara in particular can swap volume spacers around for both the negative and positive springs will open up additional tuning options for you.

Based on your concern for making sure the bike feels supportive and playful, I don't think you're necessarily going to want a more open setup — that's likely more a limitation of the damper you were running, and I've also found that RockShox stuff can start to feel a bit harsh at higher levels of (particularly HSC) damping. The Mara Pro has a ton of range, with fully open on LSC and HSC feeling rather uncontrolled while fully closed feels like you're running maple syrup in your shock instead of oil. That said it does err on the side of more damped than less, especially with rebound.

One of the nice things about the VHP 16 is its very smooth, predictable leverage curve. Shock setup is a breeze and because the curve doesn't do anything weird, it's easier to dial in your adjustments and understand how a click here or there contributes to the feel you're looking for.
 
#549 ·
zhendo said:
I owned both a Banshee Titan and Phantom V3, fantastic bikes. I don't subscribe to the desire that some folks in the Banshee forum seem to have (or used to have) around turning the Phantom into a 36lb baby enduro bike as I think that you'll never get around the limitations of 115mm of travel, so I think you're on the right track with finding a longer travel rig rather than turning a small travel rig into something its not.
Click to expand...
Yes I totally agree. I got the Phantom frame off my dad, lacking money at the time and wanting to try something new. So it was my do it all bike, that's why I needed to blur the lines a lot. And it did serve me well. I set it up with a 140mm Selva, an Angleset and as I said the Coil Shock. With that Setup its wonderful in technical stuff where its about traction and the bike doesn't have to absorb any bigger drops. The Geo lets you feel safe when tackling steep stuff and you don't need to handle too much suspension. The SDU Coil was also pretty good because it delivers good traction and has the HBO to handle bigger impacts. But that's where the good stuff ends, as you said. Because as soon as a trail opens up and you can get faster it's just a rough ride. The Geo wants you to push and be fast but my feet just screamed at me in pain. I had two vacations in Finale Ligure with that bike and while it left me impressed it was also extremely exhausting to ride.
I think in of itself the Banshee can be a small little ripper, but performs far better, left as a DC Bike, built up for purpose, being fast uphill and efficient downhill. This would compliment the VHP perfectly actually. But I need most of the parts for the Kavenz and the Platform of the Kavenz is so versatile, that I don't see myself building up two full-sus bikes, but rather modify the VHP into what my mood is (as I also have a DC Steel Hardtail). The Frame of the Kavenz is also lighter.


zhendo said:
To your air vs. coil question, the basic difference is that the air shock will feel like it has greater support early in the travel and very late in the travel, whereas the coil shock has a more substantial midstroke and is more linear overall. If playfulness is what you're after, the higher progression of an air shock will suit you, and the fact that the Mara in particular can swap volume spacers around for both the negative and positive springs will open up additional tuning options for you.
Click to expand...
Thats a really good insight, thanks. I guess the playfulness is better with an air shock, as I get deeper into its travel and therefore using the progression it lends me more? My error probably was that I thought I would still be in the midstroke when pushing.

zhendo said:
Based on your concern for making sure the bike feels supportive and playful, I don't think you're necessarily going to want a more open setup — that's likely more a limitation of the damper you were running, and I've also found that RockShox stuff can start to feel a bit harsh at higher levels of (particularly HSC) damping. The Mara Pro has a ton of range, with fully open on LSC and HSC feeling rather uncontrolled while fully closed feels like you're running maple syrup in your shock instead of oil. That said it does err on the side of more damped than less, especially with rebound.
Click to expand...
Thats also interesting. And good to know. Concerning rebound, I'm probably not fast enough to have it all the way open anyways I guess. And in the end the shock is pretty easy to tune at home I think.
 
#550 ·
Weirdo1 said:
Interesting take, I've ordered the Bike with the 16MX Mount. Which could also be ridden with a 29" Wheel. This would make the Bike more upright and higher and also have different Kinematics than 16 and 15.
Click to expand...
That is the first I have heard on running the 16MX with 29er rear wheel. I wonder how it compares to the 15.

It would be pretty sweet if Kavenz would publish a more comprehensive guide to the various shock mount and wheel size combinations.
 
#551 ·
Weirdo1 said:
Thanks for your Input. I've ordered it with a 16MX Mount. So I can also ride a VHP14MX and also with 29er which would make the Geometry a bit more upright for my local trails.

And the 15 could also be run with a MX Setup to get it slacker theoretically. So I'm going to test a lot.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, 16 and 14 uses the same mounts?

I have the 16, 16mx and 18/29(in addition I have tried +10 and +20 dropouts... running +20), and have ridden all of them... but ended up with my daily driver being the regular 16/29, with Storia shock.
I have ridden 29ers since 2012, so just felt more right for my riding than mx. But so cool to have the option to test it out.

I got a cheap RS SuperDeluxe to try out VHP16 but with shorter stroke, so a semi-15 I guess :-D

Funny thing, I rode 18 as a daily driver for 1.5 months. No shuttle, no lifts, just trail/enduro-bike. With a 190mm Zeb and Float X Perf Elite...it was my lightest setup(compared to Storia and Ext Era fork) :-D Really loved that setup too, so playfull even with that much travel, and still climb soooo well.

One of the things I really love about this bike, you can really play around with setup, or just keep it simple if you want.
 
#552 ·
Yes same mounts just different shock strokes and forks.
I'm pretty set on trying the Mullet, as I'm pretty short at 5"6'/1,68 so the clearance out back would be nice. Also because I'm used to a 115mm Phantom right now with all 29er and the rear wheel with 160mm travel will be more in my ass I guess.

Jorgen said:
One of the things I really love about this bike, you can really play around with setup, or just keep it simple if you want.
Click to expand...
Yes that's exactly the reason I got it.
 
#554 ·
Donkeeboy said:
Im running a Mara pro on a VHP 16, king reservoir fits at 230mm stroke, to go 235mm stroke you need a short reservoir.

works great 👍
Click to expand...
From the Kavenz configuration page I was under the impression that the VHP16 used a 205x65 shock (are you running 180 travel in rear)? I am also wondering about the Mara Pro on a large frame as I read the prior post about it not fitting on a medium. Can you confirm the shock size discrepancy (230/235 stroke vs 205 on the website) and what fits on a large?

Thanks!
 
#555 ·
damdam5 said:
From the Kavenz configuration page I was under the impression that the VHP16 used a 205x65 shock (are you running 180 travel in rear)? I am also wondering about the Mara Pro on a large frame as I read the prior post about it not fitting on a medium. Can you confirm the shock size discrepancy (230/235 stroke vs 205 on the website) and what fits on a large?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Newer Mara Pro PB has a shorter reservoir from stock, and you're correct that the VHP 16 runs a 206x65 shock. I am running the Mara Pro PB on a large with the longer 125 mm headtube. No idea what the reference to the 230 and 235 mm shocks is about, the VHP 18 runs a 225x75
 
#556 ·
zhendo said:
Newer Mara Pro PB has a shorter reservoir from stock, and you're correct that the VHP 16 runs a 206x65 shock. I am running the Mara Pro PB on a large with the longer 125 mm headtube. No idea what the reference to the 230 and 235 mm shocks is about, the VHP 18 runs a 225x75
Click to expand...
Great, that's what I thought, thanks! Do you know when the piggy back got shorter, was that just this year?
 
#557 ·
damdam5 said:
From the Kavenz configuration page I was under the impression that the VHP16 used a 205x65 shock (are you running 180 travel in rear)? I am also wondering about the Mara Pro on a large frame as I read the prior post about it not fitting on a medium. Can you confirm the shock size discrepancy (230/235 stroke vs 205 on the website) and what fits on a large?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Our dear friend @Donkeeboy is currently banned so I don’t think you’ll get a reply.

Based on his previous posts, I believe he would have been referring to 60mm vs 65mm shock strokes. IIRC, he was running a 205x60mm Mara pro gen1. He was able to run the long reservoir with 60mm stroke, but would have had to run the short reservoir if he wanted to run it at 65mm stroke.


damdam5 said:
Great, that's what I thought, thanks! Do you know when the piggy back got shorter, was that just this year?
Click to expand...
Regarding the new Gen 2 shocks that @zhendo mentioned. Those were updated this year (MY24). And in addition to the reservoir change, the airspring design also changed to a more traditional groove style to balance the positive and negative chambers (which seems to be a noticeable improvement).
 
#558 ·
kapolczer said:
Our dear friend @Donkeeboy is currently banned so I don’t think you’ll get a reply.

Based on his previous posts, I believe he would have been referring to 60mm vs 65mm shock strokes. IIRC, he was running a 205x60mm Mara pro gen1. He was able to run the long reservoir with 60mm stroke, but would have had to run the short reservoir if he wanted to run it at 65mm stroke.



Regarding the new Gen 2 shocks that @zhendo mentioned. Those were updated this year (MY24). And in addition to the reservoir change, the airspring design also changed to a more traditional groove style to balance the positive and negative chambers (which seems to be a noticeable improvement).
Click to expand...
Got it, thanks! I noticed its now called "Piggyback" as well. I saw a big sale at tree fort bikes that was almost 60% off but that looks to be Gen 1. From other reading about it, it sounds like the travel adjustment is quite involved and nothing like changing it on a manitou fork, which is a shame given how modular the Kavenz can be for changing out travel.
 
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