Let’s start new conversation on the new model.
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2023 Pivot Mach 4 SL
bogeydog
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As of today I’d say the M4SL but I’ll take the Epic out to some real trails next week at Hawes if I get a chance. I haven’t ridden anything actually challenging with it yet. I’d still wager that the M4SL fares better. I just took the M4SL down RMR and Boulderdash a few weeks ago and it was very capable of handling them. Not as fun or easy as my Switchblade or Firebird but still very usable and quite a bit easier to climb up Alpe with.
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Ok some initial thoughts on Flight Attendant and the M4 with FA. Yes there are a few typos but I don’t feel like correcting them.
Background - I am on the east coast of USA and we have singletrack that is laced with rocks and roots, punchy climbs and downs. Mild to wild depending on where you ride. I have owned a lot of bikes including Evil, Spec, Santa Cruz, ibis, Pivot, Atherton and a few more.
FA - Your bike starts with what I consider its base tune when suspension is open. FA uses its algorithm and firm up or lock or open the suspension. However it will never be softer or more than the base. Thats the starting point. FA will make mediocre bikes better. It will take a bike that is better in the chunk and descents and make it better on the ups.
M4 no FA - a great bike with dwlink. Pedals great already. Frame leverage has some progressiveness. Works well in chunk and can take moderately heavy hits. Better than a single pivot as a starting point if you ride what I describe above.
M4 with FA - Same as base above plus the ability to be very racy. Climbs better. Dare I say pedals through chunk and tech better. Instance my head on this one. I think the base tune in the RS fork and shock is inherently better than the stock Fox. I found the stock Fox spikey. The bike is fast and sharp but can be open in its base. It made the bike better.
FA comments - Very fast. Amazing how it changes. It know when you unweight it to open and anticipate a jump or impact. It’s noisey. Sound like AXS. You bike will feel firmer because it does spend time in pedal and lockout modes which you bike doesn’t do now. You will notice this.
I haven’t ridden the Epic 8. Don’t get mad at my but recall what I said above. FA will make bikes better. The E8 has a linear digressive leverage curve. It’s meant to feel soft and use traveling open mode. This won’t work well in all pedaling situations. Thats where FA steps in. It will take over and make the bike pedal well. That’s why Spec says riders will spend 80% of time in the middle mode. This isn’t a cut on the E8. It’s just a different method of getting the results.
Ask questions.
Background - I am on the east coast of USA and we have singletrack that is laced with rocks and roots, punchy climbs and downs. Mild to wild depending on where you ride. I have owned a lot of bikes including Evil, Spec, Santa Cruz, ibis, Pivot, Atherton and a few more.
FA - Your bike starts with what I consider its base tune when suspension is open. FA uses its algorithm and firm up or lock or open the suspension. However it will never be softer or more than the base. Thats the starting point. FA will make mediocre bikes better. It will take a bike that is better in the chunk and descents and make it better on the ups.
M4 no FA - a great bike with dwlink. Pedals great already. Frame leverage has some progressiveness. Works well in chunk and can take moderately heavy hits. Better than a single pivot as a starting point if you ride what I describe above.
M4 with FA - Same as base above plus the ability to be very racy. Climbs better. Dare I say pedals through chunk and tech better. Instance my head on this one. I think the base tune in the RS fork and shock is inherently better than the stock Fox. I found the stock Fox spikey. The bike is fast and sharp but can be open in its base. It made the bike better.
FA comments - Very fast. Amazing how it changes. It know when you unweight it to open and anticipate a jump or impact. It’s noisey. Sound like AXS. You bike will feel firmer because it does spend time in pedal and lockout modes which you bike doesn’t do now. You will notice this.
I haven’t ridden the Epic 8. Don’t get mad at my but recall what I said above. FA will make bikes better. The E8 has a linear digressive leverage curve. It’s meant to feel soft and use traveling open mode. This won’t work well in all pedaling situations. Thats where FA steps in. It will take over and make the bike pedal well. That’s why Spec says riders will spend 80% of time in the middle mode. This isn’t a cut on the E8. It’s just a different method of getting the results.
Ask questions.
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Thanks for the report bogeydog. When you stand out of the saddle and sprint, is there a full lockout on both units?
How annoying is this sound it makes?
How annoying is this sound it makes?
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I can’t recall exactly but I think it depends on terrain. Smooth is locked and not smooth isn’t.
The noise initially is rather annoying. But I changed my perspective and appreciated what the noise meant. It meant it was working and doing something I couldn’t do. It’s not loud; it’s just present.
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Great report @bogeydog Thanks. I am definitely looking forward to trying it when I can get my hands on one for my M4SL.
@TylerVernon id say if you’re used to shifting with AXS the sound fades quickly. Yes, it is easier to hear since it is closer to you and in front but I honestly forgot about it 5 minutes in.
@TylerVernon id say if you’re used to shifting with AXS the sound fades quickly. Yes, it is easier to hear since it is closer to you and in front but I honestly forgot about it 5 minutes in.
Thank you guys for your thoughts. I rode the previous generation Epic Evo and this generation Stumpjumper, on the SJ I definitely feel the squishiness when pedaling, the EE not as much. I haven’t ridden the M4SL but did try out a friend’s Ibis Ripley, it was the wrong size for me but I did like the DW link. I could see how the DW could translate over to the M4SL and provide a better suspension in pedaling situations.
My local trails are a mix of XC / trail with some bermy purpose built trails. Lots of climbing and descending in the 10-20% gradients. Not quite as many rocks and roots as AZ and the East Coast but they are still there. I do anticipate using the bike mainly from home but on some bigger trails as well (like a Downieville type area).
My local trails are a mix of XC / trail with some bermy purpose built trails. Lots of climbing and descending in the 10-20% gradients. Not quite as many rocks and roots as AZ and the East Coast but they are still there. I do anticipate using the bike mainly from home but on some bigger trails as well (like a Downieville type area).
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Interested upgrading to FA. Mind sharing where to purchase FA upgrade for the Mach 4 without buying entire new bike? Only seeing stock in Europe.
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Sending you a PM.
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Any chance I could get the info as well? I just blew up my FIT4 cartridge on my 34SC and am trying to decide whether to wait for FA or pull the trigger on the new Fox fork.
I've heard those expressions, but I'm not sure what they really mean or how should they feel.
My last bike for six years was Transition Smuggler XL. 140/115 mm suspension, Horst link, nice linkage characteristics. I tuned rear shock to make roots disappear, but still have nice pedaling performance.
My Mach 4 SL is not stock either. I have 120mm Mattoc up front and Deluxe that I'm tuning in the back. Both bikes have almost exact same geometry and are set up almost same way, except the handlebars where I went from 740mm to 780mm.
I'm more centered on the bike, bike feels higher, suspension does not move so much. I like this feeling.
Secondly it turns much better. I feel much safer taking turns at higher speed. Not sure what is the reason.
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maybe this man can explain the terms better
I think it depends on wheelbase. Canondale scalpel SE L sze is on the bike - short and twitchy.
Spur L is in the frame feeling , or trek top fuel
all 120mm travel
wb=117cm vs 121cm
mach sl is right in the middle 118.9 cm
when you standing, there is no feeling that you can go over the bar when going downhill
that's what i'm worried about is
now the choice is between mach sl and epic8
I think it depends on wheelbase. Canondale scalpel SE L sze is on the bike - short and twitchy.
Spur L is in the frame feeling , or trek top fuel
all 120mm travel
wb=117cm vs 121cm
mach sl is right in the middle 118.9 cm
when you standing, there is no feeling that you can go over the bar when going downhill
that's what i'm worried about is
now the choice is between mach sl and epic8
Unfortunately not really
BTW, I looked his Pivot Mach 4 SL build video and didn't like what he was doing as a mechanic. Bit too sloppy and rushing for my taste.One thing that I remembered that is important is suspension sag. On Transition I had Magnum Pro at 140 and much bigger sag. I also had Monarch Debonair that has very high "natural" sag. Comparing the unsagged geometry numbers given by manufacturers doesn't say much when on one bike your rear suspension sags 35% and on other 25%.
But when comparing Smuggler and Mach 4 SL geometry, Smuggler has 7mm longer wheelbase and 10mm smaller bottom bracket drop. The latter is mostly offset by bigger sag of the suspension I think.
Mach 4 SL has definitely not been twitchy for me. I haven't had a chance to ride bigger descents, but on smaller ones it has been very confident.
What troubles you there?
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For sale - Flight Attendant Shock
I am selling my Mach 4 SL Shock. This isn’t available fully to the public yet. I bought brand new and ride twice. My wife has decided to take over my Mach 4 and doesn’t need flight attendant. It’s perfect in every way.
Of note, this pairs with an off the shelf flight attendant fork. The fork doesn’t differ from stock. There are some flight attendant forks out there.
Send me a message and we can talk price. It’s ready to ship asap. Get this before the pubic can. Search my earlier posts for pics and reviews. It does a great job on the M4.
![Image]()
![Image]()
I am selling my Mach 4 SL Shock. This isn’t available fully to the public yet. I bought brand new and ride twice. My wife has decided to take over my Mach 4 and doesn’t need flight attendant. It’s perfect in every way.
Of note, this pairs with an off the shelf flight attendant fork. The fork doesn’t differ from stock. There are some flight attendant forks out there.
Send me a message and we can talk price. It’s ready to ship asap. Get this before the pubic can. Search my earlier posts for pics and reviews. It does a great job on the M4.
On vs. In comments
I totally understand this especially since I was a early 29er adopter and rode FS 29 bikes.
Here is the thing though in my experience the fact that near every bike now comes with a dropper makes the In vs. On argument less relevant near irrelevant. More about picking the right bike for the right terrain and your riding style. Race bikes should feel more on because you should pedal as much as possible and need to be handle XC type terrain that at one point some would have called all mountain terrain. Modern mountain bikes are just so good and can be pushed more and more if the rider is up for the task.
So for the M4SL specifically I feel like it is "On" the bike feeling dropper fully extended I think a lot of that has to do with the shorter reach. The fact at 120mm fork setup the Seat tube is a little slack by some "standards" and you can or in my case prefer to slam the saddle forward can also impact the "on vs in" feeling. The fact the bike is probably great with anywhere from a 40mm to 60mm stem though you should be able to adjust that that feeling to get your weight distribution feeling how you want it feel while pedaling. Now when the trail turns down the fun begin for me at least having short legs long torso on a medium with 160mm dropper I get that nice in the bike stable feeling for whipping around turns and hitting chunkier downs where this bike shines compared to others in the XC category.
My Take probably worth at least 3 cents since I have pushed this bike through some big events and rides and it has the battle scars to prove it (needs a suspension rebuild desperately at this point hopefully get to strip it down soon)💰
I totally understand this especially since I was a early 29er adopter and rode FS 29 bikes.
Here is the thing though in my experience the fact that near every bike now comes with a dropper makes the In vs. On argument less relevant near irrelevant. More about picking the right bike for the right terrain and your riding style. Race bikes should feel more on because you should pedal as much as possible and need to be handle XC type terrain that at one point some would have called all mountain terrain. Modern mountain bikes are just so good and can be pushed more and more if the rider is up for the task.
So for the M4SL specifically I feel like it is "On" the bike feeling dropper fully extended I think a lot of that has to do with the shorter reach. The fact at 120mm fork setup the Seat tube is a little slack by some "standards" and you can or in my case prefer to slam the saddle forward can also impact the "on vs in" feeling. The fact the bike is probably great with anywhere from a 40mm to 60mm stem though you should be able to adjust that that feeling to get your weight distribution feeling how you want it feel while pedaling. Now when the trail turns down the fun begin for me at least having short legs long torso on a medium with 160mm dropper I get that nice in the bike stable feeling for whipping around turns and hitting chunkier downs where this bike shines compared to others in the XC category.
My Take probably worth at least 3 cents since I have pushed this bike through some big events and rides and it has the battle scars to prove it (needs a suspension rebuild desperately at this point hopefully get to strip it down soon)💰
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New suspension!
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Fancy T-Rod
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I've written up my initial impressions here if anyone's interested.Fancy T-Rod
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