Title says it all. Been back and forth on both. I had run an aggressor with cushcore XC for a while then changed to dhr2 with no insert for a long time…. Blew up a carbon rear rim and barrowed a buddies aggressor with cushcore XC. Immediately felt the benefit with slight weight difference. I’m going back to this setup on rear. My question is more for the front which I have not explored. Stay 2.5 dhf with no insert vs dissector 2.4 with cushcore XC? Anyone had a larger sample size with this dilemma?
Heavier tire no insert vs light tire with insert
bmaster7
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Pretty sure Troy Brosnan runs around 30psi and they are going to be DH tyres. He can't weigh much but I bet he hits some stuff hard!
Edit. For a DH race in 2018 he was 68kg and ran
28.6F
31.8R
Edit. Again. Easier to copy and paste
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For me at my weight and the way I ride (LOTS of time riding in Moab, which is hard on tires and rims - though I've never had a problem at 160 pounds), inserts aren't needed. I put them in an ebike tire and on my Trance 29 but found several problems.
This is regarding Turbolight SL inserts. First of all, they make the ride harsh. (Specifically in my case. It would help for many people if you're running high pressures to avoid rim strikes - but that's not me) Much like tokens, which can also be useful, they reduce the volume of air in the tire so there's a fast ramp up in pressure.
The inserts aren't compressible as a function of air pressure, just impact, so if you take up half the air space with the insert, only half is available to be compressed. I already run low pressures anyway and have a light touch, I guess. 20+ year of riding the square edged bumps/steps in Utah without ever hitting a rim.
Secondly, in my case after checking on them in a week, I got "stanimals" and that was with Orange Seal! So, with the solids "churned out" of solution, the tires won't seal as well.
Finally, if you do damage a tire past the point of sealant or bacon strips, you now have to remove the tire from the rim to install a tube. I found that to be difficult at home, much less on a trail as the insert presses against the bead holding it in place.
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This is regarding Turbolight SL inserts. First of all, they make the ride harsh. (Specifically in my case. It would help for many people if you're running high pressures to avoid rim strikes - but that's not me) Much like tokens, which can also be useful, they reduce the volume of air in the tire so there's a fast ramp up in pressure.
The inserts aren't compressible as a function of air pressure, just impact, so if you take up half the air space with the insert, only half is available to be compressed. I already run low pressures anyway and have a light touch, I guess. 20+ year of riding the square edged bumps/steps in Utah without ever hitting a rim.
Secondly, in my case after checking on them in a week, I got "stanimals" and that was with Orange Seal! So, with the solids "churned out" of solution, the tires won't seal as well.
Finally, if you do damage a tire past the point of sealant or bacon strips, you now have to remove the tire from the rim to install a tube. I found that to be difficult at home, much less on a trail as the insert presses against the bead holding it in place.
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Haha, Troy Brosnan is faster than anyone here I think. He definitely need bigger pressures when the speed is so much faster.
I haven't found a good use case for inserts yet. If I'm running lighter tires like a Maxxis EXO equivalent, the bike isn't going to get ridden hard enough for inserts to do anything. I'm not going to be dinging rims or rolling the tires off the rim, I know that the casings are weak so I only put them on my XC bikes because they're light and roll fast. Bikes which actually get ridden hard will have enduro or DH casing tires on them because that's what's needed to keep everything in one piece.
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That's true. And the downhillers really need their (free generally) wheels to get them down the hill.
That said, the Enduro pressures are probably more relevant, as theirs need to last the event, and they often have no tech stations so if something happens they need to repair it themselves.
So it's all balance, if you're on your own in the middle of nowhere riding at sub 20psi and weigh more than these Enduro riders you might have a long walk in!
Again my biggest issue with the whole thing is the tyre manufacturers say not to use them, and if they are being used there is something wrong with tyre or rim tech.
I should probably go check my tyre pressures while I think about it 🤣
Don't get me wrong, I think emulating pros isn't always a great thing, they don't need the durability, very few probably get an actual say in the products they run. I think one example of a product that is more useful for amateurs rather than pros is carbon rims. The fact they stay true for so long outweighs potential catastrophic failure for me.
Inserts have their place and most are legit ways to reduce pinches/rim damage. Reduce is the key word. The real question is whether they are worth dealign with in the event of a flat plugs won't fix. Or maybe you want run flat ability because you're never far from the car? It's not a black and while thing. They might be the best option for some riders. Me personally I still use my airliner when I rotate a front exo to the back but I don't buy rear tires with the intention of running inserts. I'll always go heavier casing because that makes the most sense for me.
I live in Harrisonburg, VA home to Massanutten and the George Washington National Forest. The rider group here relies heavily on cush core IMO for several reasons and I've been on the train for about a year now myself. Rocks, rocks, and more rocks. I ruined rear after rear tire trying to cheat the system with lighter weight casings...because the pedaling here is also brutal. Almost everyone I ride with is on inserts and some of them are even running CC inside of DD casings. I dont have a lot of time on DD type casings but I will say that I enjoy the "feel" of cush core over our rock here. I wouldnt say I am running low or high pressures, but I can feel the muted feeling that the cush core provides and its lovely. My Levo and Status are both fully cushed with Assegai/DHR2 combos (Exo + usually) , and my trail bike is running Cush Core "trail" in the rear only. It provides some level of security to let loose as necessary for me without ruining big rides. Could I just ride DD casings and be done with it? Not sure, but I am so in love with the feel that I am not willing to play around with it at the moment.
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Insert is like HBO on a coil shock. Its there to save your butt for the two times you took a hard hit on a 2 hr ride. OR you can run high air pressure for the whole ride but I'll pass on that.
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No way to say for sure. If the hit is big enough, no insert will save you. I've cracked a rear carbon rim using meganorris, but that rim did last three years of bombing rocky creek beds.
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That's not the norm. Racers aren't going through that many wheels every race. Some racers only go through 2-3 sets a season. Not that we should copy the pros but I don't think their decision to not run inserts is because they don't care about rim protection.
The thing is that they do in fact often run inserts, it's just that while maximizing their set ups they swap back and forth. There was one article from one track where hardly any racers were on inserts and everyone took that as gospel.
They also aren't interested in lowering rolling resistance as much as a typical All Mountain rider. If I didn't care at all about low rolling resistance, I too would run DH rims front & rear and DH casing tires cause it's just easier and overall if probably less likely to result in a failure than a lighter rims & lighter tires combined with a lightweight insert which is what i run, cause it rolls so much better.
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Or instead of using high air pressure or light tires with inserts, use tires with SuperGravity casing (or even DH casing) for extra durability.
Hmmm. Interesting how much opinions differ on inserts. I no longer live in an area where they are need as much, but when I lived in area with lots of chunk (see vids of Ted Williams Trails and you'll see what I'm talking about) and I felt running Cushcore was a total gamechanger...I could run lower pressures and it felt like I gained an extra 15MM of travel with massive increase in small bump compliance (lower pressure allows the tire to absorb the small chatter that suspension would never accomplish). And much less fatigue on the hands. Game changer, as running 28PSI would be one hell of a rough ride on trails like this. So I suspect it very much depends on the terrain, and of course riding style.
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That’s the direction that I went. I run DHF/DHR II on both of my trail bikes. I’m a big dude (6’3” 300lbs) and haven’t had an issue running those without inserts.
I don’t care that they don’t roll particularly fast. My priority was durability.
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