Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner
21 - 40 of 144 Posts
Discussion starter · #22 ·
whose to say what the Top 5 are?
lm sure how l brake is not the same as how some else brakes......

l'm a Shimano (brakes) man through and through, SLX & XT, never had a problem with them, love em, finished.

Purchased a Commencal AMHT that came with Tektro 285s (l think they 285s), l was not necessarily impressed at the start, but they worked through a 4750m decent day without problems (see another thread from a long time ago), so imo they're also good [emoji2369]

but YMMV

edit: having said that, lm looking for a HT frame to swap everything over on, but it will have Shimano brakes, probably Saints
Top 5 in terms of the criteria above. :)

Of course, every list can be knocked down, but they can be very helpful as well .
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
I've had 4-pot XTs, Dominion A4s, Hope Tech V4s, and Code RSCs in recent memory.

  • Power: The Hope Tech 4 V4s have considerable power, they are the most powerful of the group, although only by a slight margin over the Dominion A4s. The power provided takes some getting used to, but once you do, they are really potent brakes. The Dominion A4s are a close, and I mean very close, second, I've been using these brakes for years and never felt they lacked power. I can get a slight bit of fade out of the Dominions, but I'm at 225lbs on a big 29er enduro bike and riding in west NC, I've absolutely roasted them to the point you could probably cook an egg on the caliper, and the fade was very very minimal (this is with a 180mm rotor, I've recently gone to a 203 in the rear). I never got any fade with the Hopes, although I did less extended downhills. The 4-pot Shimano brakes had decent power, it was acceptable, but not mind blowing like these two, same with the Codes. I'd put the Codes and 8120s in roughly the same category, neither faded particularly bad, but much more noticeable than the two above would. Hope > Hayes > SRAM / Shimano
  • Modulation: I feel like a lot of riders confuse a lack of power with modulation. Sure, if you tap the brake and the whole thing sends you flying, that's a problem, but none of the more powerful options here listed really do that even with larger rotors. They all modulate about the same when setup for equal power, however all 3 of them have this sortof solid resistance point, almost like you've hit a point in the lever stroke where the lever progressively feels like it resists more, the Hopes have less of that, so going between them means you can really end up smashing your face on the bars if you aren't careful. It's not a lack of modulation, it's just a different lever feel that's easy to mess up if you are used to having a point in the lever stroke where the lever gives you a lot of feedback, it's not an issue at all on its own, but if you have multiple bikes, I found myself struggling to get used to them. I feel all 4 are roughly equal here.
  • Consistency: I guess 'fade' can qualify here, although I touched on that earlier. The Hopes I never got any fade with at all, the Dominions you can get a miniscule amount out of if you really cook them (I mean to the point the rotors would melt your skin). I could get fade from the Codes and M8120s, not a ton, but more than the Hopes and Dominions did. The biggest issue with this category for me came with Shimano brakes and their wandering bite point below certain temperatures, I've never gotten on a bike with Shimano brakes that didn't have a wandering bite point below a certain temperature (usually freezing), if you pull the lever in quick succession, the bite point is completely different and the brake engages differently. I know some people claim to not have this problem but I've yet to feel a set of Shimano brakes that don't (I've admittedly never tried Saints). Hope > Hayes > SRAM > Shimano
  • Ergonomics: The Hope levers feel really nice, but their length is a little weird, the levers are super long and that can make locating other controls (dropper/shifter) a bit challenging since the clamp has to be out in space. The lever feels great, though, and installs easier than the others do. The Dominion levers are more reasonable length and fit closer to your grips, the hook at the end makes it easy to grab them and I've never had issues with my finger slipping off or the lever getting uncomfortable. The SRAM levers similarly feel nice. What really boils my blood about Shimano brakes is that they don't use a bearing in the lever pivot like everyone else does, whatever is in there starts to wear over time and you get this vertical flop in the lever that is absolutely infuriating. You can grab the lever and shake it around all over the place, I've had this happen with several sets and it annoys the hell out of me, every other option listed here that I've used has a bearing in place there and the lever stays rigid, meanwhile Shimanos lever blade is flopping around like a fish. None of them are particularly uncomfortable otherwise. Shimano is basically the only one I had an issue with in this category, although I did find to get enough power out of the Code RSCs, you had to run the levers further out than I prefer to.
  • Reliability: I had no issues with any of them. Notably Shimano brakes can't be rebuilt, the Hopes/Hayes/SRAM pistons and levers can be rebuilt, Shimano calipers you just toss if they don't work right. I have heard of people cracking Hayes and Hope pistons, but I think it's due to improper maintenance, the pistons can easily be chipped or damaged if you use a sharp tool to press them back in place, so don't do that. All are equal here for me.
  • Ease of bleeding: SRAM wins this category, their 'new' bleed system is super easy to use and fast, I never got a bad bleed out of the Codes ever. The Hayes brakes can be bled with SRAM tools supposedly, but it made an enormous mess when I tried it, so use their bleed kit. The process isn't awful, but it isn't super easy or consistent either, the biggest mistake I see people make is not sucking the air between the fitting and caliper out right when they attach it, so they push air into the system. If you avoid doing that, it's pretty consistent, albeit much messier. The Hope process is kinda janky tbh and Shimano is the same. On general parts availability, finding Shimano/SRAM parts in the US is real easy, Hayes is relatively easy but not as widespread, but good luck if you need anything from Hope, you are waiting on it to ship from the UK. The Hayes brakes ship with a bleed block that is very cool, the opposite side of it is half the block, you can insert it and use it to work the pistons out with no risk of them falling out, and lubricate them. Hope has a similar system you can 3d print. Overall, SRAM > Hayes > Hope/Shimano
  • Weight: They are four piston brakes. Who cares. If you are gram counting brakes then you are probably looking at 2-pot options with smaller rotors, it's not an item on the bike I really focus on weight.
  • Price: The Hopes are expensive and hard to find, so are tools for it. The Hayes are frequently discounted, but the fact they ship you a bleed block and both pad compounds with every set makes them a better value IMO. The SRAM and Shimano options...just are. I don't really think any of them are an objectively poor value, but I think Hope needs to do a better job with their US presence including parts availability and cost, I had mine shipped from the UK and it was expensive/time consuming.
Overall, it's a really tough tossup between Hope and Hayes. I ultimately took the Hope Tech V4s off my enduro bike, but the only reason is that the lever feel is just different enough to be sketchy if you are using any other option. I have Hayes on my other bikes, I've used them for years now (basically since release) and they are fantastic. You can't go wrong with any of these, but for me swapping brakes is a mindfuck so I stick with Hayes, even though Hope has a marginal benefit when it comes to fade and overall power. The fit/finish on the Hopes is also really awesome.

After several experiences, I'll never use Shimano brakes anytime soon. I don't have a huge beef with SRAM aside from their warranty department, but I feel their brakes offer less power and fewer benefits than the other options.
Damn, we found the brake ninja right here.
 
All FC listed brakes are top notch, although i have not run the Hope or TRP yet. Will come down to personal preference, rider skill, weight and terrain.

Brain dump in random order..

I would say the power from A4, XTR and MT7 are quite powerful with the MT7 and A4 eeking out more torque.

They all can be a pain to bleed occasionally but I find shimano easiest. The secondary bleed port on the A4 is not mandatory on a service bleed, its just there to make it easier on a caliper rebuild or stubborn bleed.

I find the MT7 to be finicky on bleed and harder to burp all the air out of master.

The A4 has the largest pad surface area (not sure on Hayes). It's important to match brakes with the correct disc. Some discs like Shimano (~13.5mm) have a short friction ring compared to Magura (16mm).

Stroke adjustment on Shimano's seems useless while good on A4.

While I like the sharp bite of Shimano I prefer the A4 and MT7 feel, loads power with good lever feel without feeling spongy like SRAM (also depends on pads being used).

MT7 can easily pop lever spring if over extended and a pain to put back in not to mention kinda cheesy plastic pin aka rotating dial.

The A4 master feels stout while the Shimano feel sleeker. Magura master somewhere in between.

The A4 provide caliper alignment pins that can be nice if dealing with a problem but I typically do not use them to align reverting to squeeze and tighten method.

The rotor and pads play HUGE roll in the brake systems, I think many people cheese out here running spent rotors or swapping worn pads around.

For sheer power the Trickstuff big brakes win out with about 15nm more torque.

That's all I got... for now
 
I'm a Hayes test rider so I was riding Dominion prototypes for over a year before release. That's over 5 years now on the same brake. I've been exclusively on Hayes since 2000 (Mags, HFX-Mags, Pryme and Dominion).

They've been rock solid and never let me down. I'm about a dozen sets of pads and 4-5 rotors in. I usually bleed them on a pad changes but sometimes haven't had the time and have just kept them running old fluid.
Last year I had the fluid in them come out almost black so they're getting plenty of use.

My RH lever is getting a bit slow to return, I think it's the pivot bearings that need a look at. I have had some squeaking from the push-rods, grease on the ball fixes that.

Ergonomics wise, I have large hands and run them 1-2 clicks from max reach. They fit me great. The lever adjusts against a cam instead of directly on the push-rod so no matter where you've got the lever set you have the same leverage and feel.

Heat wise these are the first brakes I've not been able to turn a 203mm rotor purple on the brake track edge (~300C). The Hayes engineers tell me Dominions can reject twice as much heat as previous brakes, but it also could be my riding got better and I'm braking less.

Setup wise I absolutely love the cross-hair screws. I swap forks a lot more than normal people do and realigning the caliper can be an absolute PITA. But this makes it really easy.

I'm running the semi-metallic pads primarily for noise reasons. Riding in and out of the damp the sintered metallics can get annoyingly noisey. They dry out and shut up quick but the first sets of honking as it scrapes water off I can do without.
 
I like Saints so much that I have them on my XC bike as well. Sure, they leak a little if not used for months (just torch the pads and they are back to full power) but the instant power is just addictive. I have used SRAM brakes before (and still have them on a bike or two) but prefer the feel of Shimano. Also, prefer mineral oil over DOT fluid.
 
I had a few more thoughts I forgot about.

Of all the options, Hope is the only one with the range of color choices they have. Hayes offers all black or bronze, there was a very limited run of purple brakes from Hayes but they are hard to get ahold of, I am pretty sure I got the last publicly available set a few weeks ago unless they are sitting in a shop somewhere. It's kinda nitpicky but I have (or had I should say) some wild color schemes on my bikes and getting the brakes to line up with the rest of the bike is kinda cool.

The Hayes system also makes caliper alignment significantly easier and more consistent. I find that once you set it up, removing and reinstalling the caliper is much easier, the grub screws prevent the caliper from moving as you torque the bolts. It also prevents the brakes from moving on the bike and coming out of alignment.
 
I've had the following (in order of my favorite to least favorite):
  • Hope T4 V4 (currently on the Heckler, would buy a set for the 5010 if I rode it more. Zero lever slop and super consistent. Quality machining and completely rebuildable. Messy to bleed, def buy the kit as mentioned)
  • TRP DHR EVO (currently on the 5010. Great power and consistency, but sloppy levers which are my only complaint)
  • Shimano XT 4 pots (came on the Heckler, hated the on/off feeling and the rattling pads)
  • Magura Trail Sport (upgraded the stock brakes on the 5010. Liked them, but were a bit cheap feeling with all the plastic bits)
  • SRAM Guide T (stock brakes on the 5010. Absolute garbage and should've never come on a $4k bike IMO)
 
I had a few more thoughts I forgot about.

Of all the options, Hope is the only one with the range of color choices they have. Hayes offers all black or bronze, there was a very limited run of purple brakes from Hayes but they are hard to get ahold of, I am pretty sure I got the last publicly available set a few weeks ago unless they are sitting in a shop somewhere. It's kinda nitpicky but I have (or had I should say) some wild color schemes on my bikes and getting the brakes to line up with the rest of the bike is kinda cool.

The Hayes system also makes caliper alignment significantly easier and more consistent. I find that once you set it up, removing and reinstalling the caliper is much easier, the grub screws prevent the caliper from moving as you torque the bolts. It also prevents the brakes from moving on the bike and coming out of alignment.
I really wanted to snag a set of purple Hayes for my purple 5010, but couldn't justify it since it already has good brakes and I barely ride it. They look dope AF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Adodero
Hope Tech 4 V4

LIKES
  • Available power is on par with most other top brakes
  • Power builds in a linear, intuitive way
  • "Tuneability" of the lever with tool free reach and bite point adjusters. They have a useful range and make a noticeable difference
  • Build quality is rock solid. No flex or play in the levers at all. Everything fits like it should.
  • Parts availability (in the UK at least) is exceptional. Every single part is available as a spare, listed in simple diagrams on the website, and Hope guarantee all spares will be available for the next ten years at least
  • The Tech 4 update has fixed the issues of lacklustre power, arm pump inducing squeeze factor and sticky pistons* These are seriously powerful, smooth feeling and reliable brakes
  • Wide range of rotors and pads to choose from
  • Huge range of colour customisation - adjuster screws, top caps, lever blades, bore caps, banjo bolts, rotors, stainless/kevlar hoses
  • Just look at them :love:
Image



* The Tech 3s had all of their power buried at the end of the stroke, so you had to squeeze really hard, leading to arm pump on long descents. The new levers are longer, with a lighter action. You don't have to pull anywhere near as hard and they feel much more powerful. The old pistons got really dirty in the muddy winters here, and would stick leading to pad rub and a spongey lever feel. They also seemed to chip really easily. The new ones have stainless steel jackets which makes it harder for mud to stick to them, and they don't chip or scratch easily. End result is no more pad rub from wandering pistons and less cleaning required.

DISLIKES

  • They can be fiddly to set up. You have to manually align the calipers and pads over the rotors, and it can take a bit of work to get them running drag free on fresh pads. Compared to my old Saints at least which were just unbolt, squeeze, tighten (pretty much)
  • The bleed process can be messy and it sometimes takes a while to achieve a really solid bite
  • If using post mount adapters you'll need the Hope ones. The calipers are chunky monkeys. They might work on some IS adapters (I don't know).
  • Their floating rotors don't work with certain hub/frame combinations. The big rivets which attach the braking track to the alloy spider stick out a couple of mm and can rub on the frame. I had this issue and don't mind sharing specifics if needed. I've read that Hope hubs have their rotor mounts slightly inboard compared to other brands to get around it, though I haven't been able to verify that. Worth a Google at least for anyone thinking of trying them.
 
Have used mt7, slx, xt, Saint, code r, code rsc, Hayes a4. Also have some trickstuff and radic brakes I've yet to ride too.

Hayes are overall the best of the mainstream. Easy bleed, nice lever action, very powerful and fast to get pad aligned.

Shimano anything are the easiest to bleed perfectly. Nice lever shapes. Love the servowave. They're not as strong as Hayes, but still plenty.

Mt7 weren't for me. They have OK power but felt flexi and were **** to bleed. I liked the magnets on the pads though.

Codes don't get my vote. Fussy bleed to get a lever as crisp as I'd like and stay that way. Don't like the long levers. Easiest to get pads though.

Controversial opinion, but modulation is on the end user. There's never a time when I've said I wish I had more modulation (there's many times when I wished I've had more power haha).

My advice is to try them all, buy them used. Sell them if you don't like them.

Interestingly the radic brakes are easiest of all to bleed and feel perfect. Super short lever dead throw, huge power.
Trickstuff are fussy af to bleed, but once done feel great. More lever throw than radic, maybe just a touch more power. But haven't ridden them properly. Nor are they on the same pads.

Hope this helps, thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
 
This probably wont help, but i just upgraded my rear brake from a sram guide rs to a Magura MT7 Pro I got for 90$ and I absolutely love it. I got a faster time on trails and my wheelies got so much better!
 
That's a bummer, especially since the A2s are top loaders.
 
One bummer about the Hayes A4 is the pads load from bottom. I much prefer top loaders.
That's a result of the metal bridge used to make the caliper stiffer. If you cut a slot the size of the dominion pads through the top of the caliper you'd lose significant stiffness, clamping force and lever feel.
 
One bummer about the Hayes A4 is the pads load from bottom. I much prefer top loaders.
It's worth considering that if you set the grub screws correctly, it's less work to remove and reinstall the caliper than it is with other brake systems since you can just bolt it up without having to re-align it. I agree it's a bit more tedious to install them, but it's marginal given you don't have to realign it every time.
 
It's worth considering that if you set the grub screws correctly, it's less work to remove and reinstall the caliper than it is with other brake systems since you can just bolt it up without having to re-align it. I agree it's a bit more tedious to install them, but it's marginal given you don't have to realign it every time.
Am I the only person who just takes the wheel out to change brake pads?

You need the rotor out to spread the pistons with old pads anyway. So just wheel out, spread pads, undo the bolt, swap the pads, bolt in, wheel in and check alignment.
 
Is it still not a detail that would have been nice? Usability is still important in engineering, as is serviceability.

It's an admittedly minor nit, all things considered. But it's a fair observation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jayem
Is it still not a detail that would have been nice? Usability is still important in engineering, as is serviceability.

It's an admittedly minor nit, all things considered. But it's a fair observation.
Top loading pads on a 2 pot brake aren't a big compromise to caliper stiffness because the pads are shorter. Top loading pads on a 4 pot brake really compromise the stiffness of the caliper due to the longer pads.
 
Top loading pads on a 2 pot brake aren't a big compromise to caliper stiffness because the pads are shorter. Top loading pads on a 4 pot brake really compromise the stiffness of the caliper due to the longer pads.
In the current design, that is correct. Do you take feedback from your customers this way too?
 
21 - 40 of 144 Posts