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Just_Cruisin

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I read something about a legislator introducing a bill to legalize ebikes on all bicycle trails across Texas?

HB 715

I’m not good at posting things or finding petitions or such, but has anyone started something to keep bicycle trails for pedal powered bicycles only?

Thanks
 
#3 ·
You should try google.

legiscan.com

Texas HB715 | 2023-2024 | 88th Legislature

Bill Text (2023-05-05) Relating to the operation of an electric bicycle in a state park. [Referred to Water, Agriculture, & Rural Affairs]
legiscan.com legiscan.com

This applies, based on the intro text, only to the 95 Texas state parks. This would have no jurisdiction on city or county trails, and obviously have zero impact on private trails.

We've had several incidents with riders on Saurons here, which are essentially fully electric dirt bikes, so I will take the under on the effectiveness of the legislature to adequately define what an ebike is and is not. The bill actually calls out class 1 and class 2 by the transportation code. But the devil is in the details when it comes to enforcement of the rules.

We ended up with no electric scooters on the Town Lake hike and bike trail in Austin but they allow electric bikes. Why? To some degree I believe that scooters are way more dangerous/impractical on a crowded trail, but in my mind the bigger issue is that it is impossible to enforce an e-bike ban because you are now asking cops to know the difference between an e-bike and a standard bike. There is plenty of opportunity to be wrong in both directions.

Ultimately this entire issue is problematic because the bike industry did a shitty job of managing the introduction of e-bikes. They developed them and sold them with little to no cooperation with states, localities or even the federal government. There was a huge opportunity to make this a massive win for the industry, but instead, we are where we are because they could not get their act together. Had all of this legislation and lobbying been handled before the products hit the market, the situation would have been vastly different. This is no different than the issues we are seeing with autonomous vehicles. That is another example of manufacturers trying to get the edge and bringing out functionality way before the rules and regulations were settled. That fuzzy in-between stage is where we sit today.

20 years from now we'll all laugh at this, either because e-bikes failed or because it is not such an integrated part of the market that you treat is like 29 vs. 27.5. But we are nowhere near that point right now, there is a long way to go.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
I tried google but it pulled up legalizing casino legislation from a few years ago?

Thanks for the link.


Yes those electric dirt bikes would tear up trails pretty bad.

I don’t think the public or the police would differentiate between them and class II so it would be a free for all leading to significant pushback to get all bicycles off of trails.
 
#5 ·
That is my concern. Ultimately, I see e-bikes as a threat to our trail access, much the same way that strava is a threat to trail access. There are good people and idiots out there, things like electric power and KOM challenges both leave us in a position where someone is gonna get run down by a bike, and when that happens trail access is at risk.

Strava is a self regulating issue to some degree because generally the people riding too fast to try to get KOM have some skills. As a skilled rider I still sit ~300th or so in most places, so the need to crank it hard to maybe get a KOM is non existent. The handful of people chasing each other are a risk, but a smaller, moderate risk because they are generally better riders.

But there is a generation of e-bike riders that can achieve much higher speeds than their skills can handle. I've practically been run down by some a couple times. Clearly beginners, passing waaaay to fast on climbs that if they were unpowered they would not be an issue to the other riders or hikers. I'm sure there are responsible riders as well, but it only takes a few bad apples.

Trail access is critical for all of us.
 
#7 ·
The problem will be that while a mountain biker can discern the differences between all of these different vehicles, to a bike or a pedestrian, all will be considered a "mountain bike" to them. We'll all get painted with the same brush, and that is what worries me.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
austin_bike said:
The problem will be that while a mountain biker can discern the differences between all of these different vehicles, to a bike or a pedestrian, all will be considered a "mountain bike" to them. We'll all get painted with the same brush, and that is what worries me.
Click to expand...
Yes, same worry here.

People on trails get pissed, they want bikes banned, then less and less trails will be available to human powered bicycles.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I have a lot of different feelings on this issue.

Ultimately e-bikes on the trails I ride, where I literally rarely see another human being, and no hikers at all, seems like a non-issue (most of these trails I can not share the names or locations). I plan to get a mid-power ebike for these trails. I'll of course keep a bike for the easier trails, family rides, Crank & Drank (night XC ride), etc.

Another factor is full power ebikes have 2x more torque than a full powered 450F motocross e-bike at it's peak (85NM + 63 ft tq. A KX450F has 32 ft tq. People can argue all they want that it's only about 1 hp, but riding them with a light e-bike, fast rolling tires, and all that instant torque they feel more like a 10hp dirt bike.

On the other hand a guy on the Austin FB e-bike group posted a group ride, stating as being very fast (he actually said 'plan on going 20 mph), on the Saturday after New Years (70 degrees and blue skies, on a Holiday weekend) on the most beginner trails you can basically find in Austin at Bliss Spillar. These are trails where people set there infants down on the path, dogs run free, the occasional wheelchair runs around. Here lies the problem. To ride those trails even with a 10 mph average on a bicycle requires a lot of skill, fitness & experience that these e-bikers mostly don't possess. There is also a clear lack of judgement.
 
#10 ·
Suns_PSD said:
he actually said 'plan on going 20 mph'
Click to expand...
Yep, it only takes a couple of these. The problem with this whole argument is that most bikers are respectful and pretty easy going. There are always going to be the handful of bad apples. The only problem with e-bikes is that they make the barrier to entry to that club financial, not physical. When you can buy your way into things it dramatically changes the dynamics.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
austin_bike said:
Yep, it only takes a couple of these. The problem with this whole argument is that most bikers are respectful and pretty easy going. There are always going to be the handful of bad apples. The only problem with e-bikes is that they make the barrier to entry to that club financial, not physical. When you can buy your way into things it dramatically changes the dynamics.
Click to expand...
True.

Usually, I couldn’t care less if someone uses money to buy their way into some perceived ‘club’, but when it will result in trail and park closures that negatively affect me I say “screw the ebikes”.

The number of ‘bad apples’ pissing off hikers and equestrian outdoor people is about to go through the roof.

I hope this bill never passes cause once bikers lose access to those parks and trails we lose it forever.
 
#12 ·
austin_bike said:
That is my concern. Ultimately, I see e-bikes as a threat to our trail access, much the same way that strava is a threat to trail access. There are good people and idiots out there, things like electric power and KOM challenges both leave us in a position where someone is gonna get run down by a bike, and when that happens trail access is at risk.

Strava is a self regulating issue to some degree because generally the people riding too fast to try to get KOM have some skills. As a skilled rider I still sit ~300th or so in most places, so the need to crank it hard to maybe get a KOM is non existent. The handful of people chasing each other are a risk, but a smaller, moderate risk because they are generally better riders.

But there is a generation of e-bike riders that can achieve much higher speeds than their skills can handle. I've practically been run down by some a couple times. Clearly beginners, passing waaaay to fast on climbs that if they were unpowered
Click to expand...
Give me a freakin break. Some people are just that fast. Real pros are even faster and can obliterate those times in a training ride.

Most people couldn’t beat a pro riding riding flat out while on their Turbo Lev in Turbo mode.

Also, poor passing is not limited to beginners. Just part of being an ignorant A hole. There was an experienced ebike rider named James who hit several people at Rocky hill while racing on his Ebike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#13 ·
If we were better at using words or phrases more accurately, we would not fall into the trap of ambiguity that opens the door for more motorized vehicle abuse, like it or not. "E-bike" is an ambiguous phrase that is purposefully used to distract us enough to not think too hard about it. Why not use the phrase "Motorized Bicycle"? Or maybe "Motorized MTB"? Or, how about "motorized vehicle"? We all need to get on the same page to logically discuss these motorized vehicles, otherwise we will continue to apologize for the creep of motorized "MTB's" onto existing human-powered trail systems causing more and more conflict. It would be helpful if we began the discussion here 1st! This is the rub. Nobody seems to want to accurately describe what we are debating to begin with. Is it on purpose? Maybe, maybe not. This legislation seems to go down the same old rathole blindly while attempting to differentiate between "classes" of motorized bicycles in order to allow them when it should back up and simply determine whether it is a motorcycle or not, then legislate. It could easily be done by stating simply that it has a motor. But instead, they continue to encourage them by "classifying" them (the motors) into different "categories" of "E-Bikes", (still wondering what this means) avoiding any decision that might discourage sales in an "emerging" market. Even if your state, county, city or trail advocacy group uses the clear phrase "human powered transportation" in their bylaws for trail use, the ADA can still step in and mandate that you must allow anyone with a disability to be able to use a motor assisted vehicle on any trail, and some states this includes those over 65 yrs of age. Motorized bicycles are not the problem. Determining "what" they are and "where" to allow them is where we should start a logical dialog. All of these motored vehicles on trail systems requires more clear debate before carefully and thoughtfully allowing them anywhere but on the street. Get ready to rumble!
 
#14 · (Edited)
The question can be most easily dealt with by determining whether the power to the bike is controlled via "Pedal Assist" or "Throttle" as these are the primary factors that differentiate between a traditional bicycle's operation and a motorcycle's operation.
  • If you don't have to pedal it to make it move, it is a motorcycle.
  • If you are required to pedal it in order for it to move, it is a bicycle.

Beyond that, there are classifications for the e-bikes designed to operate as pedal-assist which are based upon limiting how the power will be applied and cut off under defined conditions.

Current classifications being adopted have been well considered in regard to reducing conflict and ensuring safety on shared-use trails. They have already been "carefully and thoughtfully" considered. Anyone truly interested in "clear debate" should look into what has already been considered before assuming this hasn't been done. This is most likely why some are "still wondering what this means." Merely griping in a forum, based upon assumptions and personal opinion is unlikely to bring anyone closer to understanding.

None of the established classifications have taken into account the bruising of fragile ego suffered by riders who prefer loudly professing intolerance over making a sincere effort to peacefully coexist.

Nearly all of the complaints about behavior of e-bike riders are the same as the negative behaviors shown by errant riders on non-motorized bikes who ride public trails as if they are their private race course. Granted, these riders have always needed to be encouraged to be more considerate. However, they will always exist to some degree and cannot be legislated away regardless of whether the bike they ride does or does not have a motor.

For those other riders who have worked hard to reach a level of fitness and ability who feel cheated by someone being able to make the same climb without suffering as much to pay their way, they will be better served by measuring their performance against themselves and their peers on like equipment. And, embrace the concept that as long as people are enjoying riding their bicycles on the trail in a responsible manner it benefits all.

The problems users experience on shared trails are most often ego based, rather than power source based.
 
#15 ·
FJSnoozer said:
Give me a freakin break. Some people are just that fast. Real pros are even faster and can obliterate those times in a training ride.

Most people couldn’t beat a pro riding riding flat out while on their Turbo Lev in Turbo mode.

Also, poor passing is not limited to beginners. Just part of being an ignorant A hole. There was an experienced ebike rider named James who hit several people at Rocky hill while racing on his Ebike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

To corroborate this, in a race I volunteered at last weekend, on a 9 mile course, the winner of the overall Expert class (3-lap) race also entered and won the (2-lap) E-bike class.
The difference in average lap times for each class showed a whopping 10-second-per-mile advantage for the ebike over the non-motorized bike when ridden by the same Expert rider.

Ten freakin' seconds, per mile, over nine miles, is of no significance at all on a 30-ish minute lap.

People will ride an e-bike at their own pace determined by the limits of their fitness and skill, just like anybody else.

This should close the debate, but I know it won't.
 
#17 ·
Cleared2land said:
Obviously you've not riden trails in my area. Many ride e-bikes well beyond their fitness and skill.
Click to expand...
There are people on regular bikes who can be discourteous riders as well. If you think back before e-bikes you can likely recall plenty of examples.

It is the type of person who does this that is the problem, always has been.
 
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