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Hang up on square edge hits / losing speed in rock gardens

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#22 ·
Profile pic checks out.....
@2supple I had this issue when i was running an 11-6, I was advised to open up HSC and that solved the issue for me. Like others have said, next time you're out on the trail open up LSR and session that section of terrain your experiencing the hang up on and then move on to HSC if the issue still shows itself. Shouldn't be too difficult to sort out.. If those fail to resolve then look into retune..
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
angieri918 said:
Profile pic checks out.....
@2supple I had this issue when i was running an 11-6, I was advised to open up HSC and that solved the issue for me. Like others have said, next time you're out on the trail open up LSR and session that section of terrain your experiencing the hang up on and then move on to HSC if the issue still shows itself. Shouldn't be too difficult to sort out.. If those fail to resolve then look into retune..
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Thanks - I think my next move will be opening up HSC and make sure LSR is right. Sounds like HSC is probably the culprit. You're right I need to go back and session that piece of trail. Would be nice to sort this out at the bike park but many months away from that option still.
 
#24 ·
karpiel said:
I would be interested to learn what shim tunes you had before on comp & rebound and what bike, riding style etc and if they changed both or one at a time and to what ? Its worth noting that there is one on-line supplier (bike shop selling on-line) who is supplying standard "generic" tunes on V3's, (fine if you fit exactly within the criteria of bike, weight, etc etc.) but this is most certainly NOT what EXT are all about and I would always strongly recommend talking though your requirements with your local EXT guy before making any purchases to ensure shim spec tunes are exactly as EXT intended any disp/supplier should always offer a FREE after sales re-tune if not happy, myself included. It almost appears that the people that have not been happy are the ones that have off the shelf tunes to start with ? Maybe maybe not ? more info needed.
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Not sure who you are asking but I'll bite.

I've had a couple of EXT shocks, one for a Banshee Titan and the other for a Kenevo SL. The shock for the Titan had to go thru a multitude of different tunes all at my cost to get it near working well as it came with huge amounts of HSC and the rebound was way too tight. This process at my cost left a bad taste but in end the shock was working reasonably well. FYI a stock Kitsuma coil gave more grip and could deal with chatter better than the EXT shock ever could, so that's what replaced the EXT on that bike. I missed the HBO but that was it.

Next bike was the KSL. This time it didn't have enough HSC imo. Harsh AF on repeated hits and was too eager to get into its travel. Again to be fair to the shock I believe (in the end after a multitude of shocks) that the bikes kinematics were to blame to a degree for this window of average operation. All shocks that I tried exhibited very similar traits in this one scenario (harsh on square edge repeated hits), some just dealt with it better than others. An Ohlins TTX2 air performed the best for me in this bike.

My experience with EXT Storia's are that if you get a tune absolutely nailed then it's great. If you haven't and have to chase your tail thru a seller/distributor who perhaps doesn't have an appropriate dyno and/or exact info on tunes etc to get you close, then the tuning process is a shot in the dark and gets expensive and frustrating.
 
#25 ·
2supple said:
Thanks - I think my next move will be opening up HSC and make sure LSR is right. Sounds like HSC is probably the culprit. You're right I need to go back and session that piece of trail. Would be nice to sort this out at the bike park but many months away from that option still.
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Even that is a red flag, if you have to run it "open", why does it even have the damn dial on the shock?
 
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Discussion starter · #26 ·
Jayem said:
Even that is a red flag, if you have to run it "open", why does it even have the damn dial on the shock?
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recommended setting was halfway on HSC (7/14) clicks, so I’ll probably open it up a few clicks. Still within the range. If it feels too damped fully open I could use the free re tune. Wish I could compare it to the X2’s tune on a dyno
 
#27 ·
Yeah, but if has a useable tuning range, it should never be feeling like a jackhammer outright, again, a red flag. Mine felt like it would deflect off of every sharp edged bump, rather than absorb.
 
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#28 ·
Here is what I'm using at 185 pounds:

Minus means from full closed, plus means from full open.

Patrol - LSC -9, HSC -11, R +1, 425 pound spring
Insurgent - LSC -8, HSC -11, R unknown, 450 pound spring

Patrol is a close tune but they (EXT USA) were out of a particular shim so I agreed to a lighter rebound setup, excellent shock on that bike and when it is up for service will experiment with a 400 spring and more rebound to see if I need to request an even lighter rebound tune as while I'm running it open pretty much and not suffering it would be nice to have more adjustment range, spring change should help that or lighter rebound tune and same spring.

I didn't realize I was running that little rebound until I was setting up the Insurgent shock to match...it is a PITA to get to the rebound adjuster on Evil bikes, running probably +3 or 4 on rebound from full open.

I have noticed that the default settings, while good, do tend to feel a little too firm in some situations - depends on if you are going a lighter spring vs heavier spring and what you are riding for terrain and your style. Coming down a click or two on LSC, HSC, and matching up rebound gets things feeling nice and fluid for what I like.

What fork are you running and do you feel like it is balanced/harmonized with the Storia?
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Jayem said:
Yeah, but if has a useable tuning range, it should never be feeling like a jackhammer outright, again, a red flag. Mine felt like it would deflect off of every sharp edged bump, rather than absorb.
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Not a jackhammer, just feels like the bike doesn't carry speed as well. As if there's a little parachute behind the rear wheel that opens up as you go into a rock garden. Whereas the stock X2 feels like the bike is on rails when going through chunk.
 
#30 ·
I see what you are saying and I suspect that going down a click on LSC and HSC and testing, seeing if that is better, and repeating, will help you get it dialed in as that is how mine felt at first until I started making small adjustments and then it just felt right which isn't scientific but basically to the point where I wasn't thinking about what the shock was doing anymore, like shock nirvana type deal.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
silentG said:
I see what you are saying and I suspect that going down a click on LSC and HSC and testing, seeing if that is better, and repeating, will help you get it dialed in as that is how mine felt at first until I started making small adjustments and then it just felt right which isn't scientific but basically to the point where I wasn't thinking about what the shock was doing anymore, like shock nirvana type deal.
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Thanks, yeah i'm definitely going to try to open up HSC a few clicks. Will need to go session a good piece of trail since the bike park is closed for a while. I'm hoping I don't have to lower LSC a ton because I want the bike to pedal pretty well (esp since it pedals great with the X2 too).

To answer your question on the fork, I'm really happy with how I have the fox 38 setup. No complaints in terms of traction/support/bottom out. The bike carries speed well with the X2 too, so I'm pretty sure it's just the setup on the storia that needs some adjustment.

I did notice the Storia offered a nicer feel on big hits over the X2 (assuming it's the HBC). If I can get this other piece dialed it will be a winner for sure.
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
TylerVernon said:
30 posts into this thread and I learn the guy hasn't even taken some clicks off his hsc. Twilight zone stuff.
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Yeah... what an idiot for asking a mtb related question on a mtb forum. This is about a specific "hang up" issue for shock setup. I'm asking the question because it's winter time and i'm trying to get pointed in the right direction instead of changing everything one click at a time. If the park was open I could settle this in a day but that won't be for five months.

If you don't have any value to add and are just going to be negative then maybe don't say anything? Just a thought.
 
#35 · (Edited)
2supple said:
recommended setting was halfway on HSC (7/14) clicks, so I’ll probably open it up a few clicks. Still within the range. If it feels too damped fully open I could use the free re tune. Wish I could compare it to the X2’s tune on a dyno
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Here's mine
Weight: 73 kg about 160 lbs (naked)
Bike: Spesh SJ Evo S3
Shock: EXT e-Storia, riding style, bike and weight tuned

From fully closed
HSC: 11
LSC: 10-11 it depend where you ride
HBC: 4
Spring: 500
 
#36 ·
If I was going to run a coil shock, it would be an Avy Bomber.

I've been down the coil path and just didn't enjoy it and maybe completely unrelated but I was following my buddy on his SB150 with an 11-6 shock and it was really noticeable how much he was slipping and sliding on the trail compared to me. Bike, shock, set up, rider, I don't know but it struck me being that he had such high end gear.
 
#37 ·
2supple said:
Not a jackhammer, just feels like the bike doesn't carry speed as well. As if there's a little parachute behind the rear wheel that opens up as you go into a rock garden. Whereas the stock X2 feels like the bike is on rails when going through chunk.
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The way that EXT shocks are designed, there is a massive amount of HSC built into the base valve. The use a very stiff spring behind the shim stack for the HSC adjustment. That is also why they are able to run such low pressure for the IFP (50 psi). No amount of re-tuning or clicker turning will get rid of it.

I had an EXT coil, and liked it until I moved to Colorado. It just did not work that well in the steep rocky stuff where I ride now. They are really just not a good match for high speed and rough terrain, as you have found. They are great for smoother bike park stuff with single event big compressions like jumps and drops, they have a nice platform to push and pump off of, but they can't handle repeated high speed stuff without getting hung up. Even with LSC and HSC fully open, they just don't flow enough oil.

At one point I did some back to back testing with the EXT and an Avy tuned Bomber CR. It was not even close, the Bomber was faster everywhere except climbing and smooth flat sections (no climb switch). It felt slower because it was so smooth, but the clock doesn't lie. With the EXT there was way more trail feedback from things like embedded rock, the Bomber just made it disappear.

My suggestion would be to sell it and get a Fox DHX, RS Super Deluxe coil, or a Bomber CR tuned by Avalanche. All would work much better for you!
 
#38 ·
If they're only running 50psi reservoir pressure, then that means they must be running some VERY stiff base valve configurations to keep everything balanced. Usually, when shocks rely on that, manufacturing repeatability becomes a huge issue because that valve is so tiny and sensitive to small variances. Wouldn't be surprised to see some wonky behaviors out of those things when they're delivered.

As much as bracketing can lead people down a rabbit hole instead of fixing larger top-level issues, it'd be worth trying everything full open, full closed, and halfway with no other changes to see what the overall impression is.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
GH28 said:
If they're only running 50psi reservoir pressure, then that means they must be running some VERY stiff base valve configurations to keep everything balanced. Usually, when shocks rely on that, manufacturing repeatability becomes a huge issue because that valve is so tiny and sensitive to small variances. Wouldn't be surprised to see some wonky behaviors out of those things when they're delivered.

As much as bracketing can lead people down a rabbit hole instead of fixing larger top-level issues, it'd be worth trying everything full open, full closed, and halfway with no other changes to see what the overall impression is.
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Agree, bracketing can lead down a rabbit hole. But based on responses, seems like the two main culprits for "hang up" are either too much compression or too little rebound. So shouldn't take long to test.

If that doesn't work, I've found a shop that will throw the X2 and EXT on a dyno to see how they behave differently. Not sure if that will help but in theory it should show if something is way off on the EXT... I think...
 
#40 ·
2supple said:
Agree, bracketing can lead down a rabbit hole. But based on responses, seems like the two main culprits for "hang up" are either too much compression or too little rebound. So shouldn't take long to test.

If that doesn't work, I've found a shop that will throw the X2 and EXT on a dyno to see how they behave differently. Not sure if that will help but in theory it should show if something is way off on the EXT... I think...
Click to expand...
Really depends on the types of inputs. The rear can get a "hanging up" feeling from too much or too little compression, also too much or too little rebound. Depends on the height, shape, and spacing/speed of them, and what you're trying to optimize for. Also depends what your front end is doing. If that's too stiff relative to the rear then you'll be getting really funny loading way into the shock stroke just from the front end alone.

The dyno comparison would be really interesting.
 
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