Fast Gravel Bikes

Dunnigan · Dec 17, 2022

Ok, my last post asking for advice on a new bike I said no gravel. But I guess I lied....now gravel is looking more interesting. So my bike dreams are shifting.

For example, this ride looks like fun, with mix of tarmac, gravel, and single track: Rule of Three

I've also been watching videos on the Belgium Waffle Ride and Unbound, and those look like some good times, although I would be up for the shorter versions of those races.

So I'm thinking a fast gravel bike would be the best way to go, something like the Checkpoint SL, Crux, Aspero, Exploro Racemax, etc. Any other that should be on that list?

It will see plenty of road miles for training, shorter gravel races (60 miles or less for now), and mixed surface races. So it needs to handle pavement without being demoralizingly slow, and be able to fly on buff single track.

Can one bike get me tight gear ratios for hammering on the road and still give me a gear to climb the trails?

eb1888 · Dec 17, 2022

Second wheelset is what you want.

lewis9 · Dec 17, 2022

Factor Ostro or LS

BackWoodsHick · Dec 17, 2022

Two wheel sets (with disc brakes).
Rene Herse tires.
2X drive train.
Don't overdo the slack.

(My gravel bike is technically listed as an "all-road" bike. I have a 46/30T x 11-36T drivetrain, which means I only miss the very top (50Tx11T) gear. Shimano also makes a 48/31T crankset, fwiw.

My on-road 700c wheelset has Barlow Pass 38mm wide slicks with low rolling resistance. This allows easy on-road riding, protects me from the horrible road surfaces where I live, and allows for moderate off-road. The other wheelset is 650b and has knobby Rene Herse tires, and handles more mountain-bike like trails (the limiting factor being my skillset, not the tires).

xjbaylor · Dec 17, 2022

For me, not riding on the road in groups any more, something like Ekar can get me the range that I need, but I also live in a fairly flat to rolling area, so I don't need either extreme like some others might.

I agree that two wheel sets is probably the best fit, and a bike that can run 650b x BIG tires will give you a lot of versatility.

Catmandoo · Dec 17, 2022

Also add a Cannondale Topstone to the list. The aluminum Topstone 1 @$2300 is a very well priced bike, I've used one since '19. I put Conti Grand Prix 4 Season road tires on in it, in 28mm, which on the OEM wheels end up as a 32mm tire. I also changed to a 12-25 cassette, which with the 30/46 crank is all I need for local hills. I have a 2nd set of wheels with Gravel King SK tires in a 43mm, it's great tire, pretty good on dirt single track as well as rolls pretty well on asphalt. On the gravel wheels I kept the stock 11-34 cassette which will get me up most any hill. The 2 wheel concept gets you a gravel bike as well as a road bike all in one.

benjpi · Dec 18, 2022

Two-by-11 with a 46-30 crank is a good suggestion, with an 11-36 or a 10-36 cassette if you go with SRAM. A second wheelset is nice, but something like a 32mm Panaracer GravelKing SS will give a nice road bias, and the 32mm width is good enough for UCI cyclocross so most buffed trails are probably okay. Ekar is a great idea as a 1x system, but gear-to-gear jumps will not be as tight as with a 2x system.

A lot of road speed - above 15mph or so - will be determined by position. A lot of gravel setups have higher bars for descending / tech control (and comfort) that you pay for in wind resistance on flat pavement. An option - if your back is up for it - is to flip your stem for times when you'll be doing more road. Flipping the stem is a little tougher than changing wheels (assuming the brake disks on your second set don't rub) - but it's a lot cheaper.

For a second set of off-road wheels, GravelKing SK+ is a very popular tire with more of an off-road bias. If you really want to go nuts (and if it fits) you can run something like the Schwalbe Thunder Burt for still more off-road capability.

For the sake of a useless comparison, back when I was doing a lot of MTB cross country racing, I could sustain fast road speed with 2.1 wide Michelins (Wild Grip'r Race, if I remember right) - these had herringbone-tread centers. I would train at lunch on a paved, wide rail trail, and with my elbows resting on the shifter bodies out by the grips it was pretty aero. I rode the same segments on my road bike (trying to beat my MTB times) and it was slower - hands on the drops was less aero than elbows on the shifters, apparently, and the tires made little difference. Aero makes a big difference in road speed.

From what I've seen so far, carbon gravel frames are built like road bike frames - light. MTB carbon has gotten a lot heavier to deal with cracks, crash replacement warranties, and such. Tipping over on a light carbon road bike doesn't happen too often (unless you're crit racing) - but might a bit more if you're really off-roading. Consider aluminum (or other metal) for the frame if you think you might toss it into the rocks now and then.

norcalbike · Dec 18, 2022

Are we talking long flat gravel roads, or west coast style where there’s still a lot of winch and plummet on fire roads?

Funoutside · Dec 18, 2022

If you have the cash the Allied Echo looks good. It has a flip chip in the front & rear to make road(32mm max) or road-ish gravel(40mm max). It's pretty light & looks to be a good handler on the road too.
Otso Waheela C(arbon) has a flip chip in the rear & that's more endurance gravel leaning than the Echo & comes with mounts at a lower price. It's less aero than some of the options you are looking at, but it's still reasonable light without sacraficing too much on terms of comfort.

As others have said GRX comes in a 48/31 crankset, which could be great for where you ride. I have Otso Waheela S(teel) setup with 50/34t front & 11-40t rear, which is the unofficial max for GRX 11spd. Gearing has been good enough for the West Coast fire roads(10%+) I ride with but solid enough on moderate pace group ride with gravel slicks,

Catmandoo · Dec 18, 2022

benjpi said:
.

From what I've seen so far, carbon gravel frames are built like road bike frames - light. MTB carbon has gotten a lot heavier to deal with cracks, crash replacement warranties, and such. Tipping over on a light carbon road bike doesn't happen too often (unless you're crit racing) - but might a bit more if you're really off-roading. Consider aluminum (or other metal) for the frame if you think you might toss it into the rocks now and then.

My chinese carbon road bike with the 25mm tires weighs 17.5 lbs. My Topstone aluminum with the gravel wheels/tires is 22.5 lbs. a Topstone carbon is about 19 lbs. You do save weight with carbon, but it costs. I do notice the 5 lbs weight difference if I use my aluminum Topstone with the road wheels, its maybe 1/2 mph slower or so it seems. A light carbon road bike will feel faster, IMO.

benjpi · Dec 18, 2022

Catmandoo said:
My chinese carbon road bike with the 25mm tires weighs 17.5 lbs. My Topstone aluminum with the gravel wheels/tires is 22.5 lbs. a Topstone carbon is about 19 lbs. You do save weight with carbon, but it costs. I do notice the 5 lbs weight difference if I use my aluminum Topstone with the road wheels, its maybe 1/2 mph slower or so it seems. A light carbon road bike will feel faster, IMO.

That's what I said: gravel carbon is road carbon; and in your comparison is 3.5 pounds different not 5 (19 carbon to 22.5 aluminum). This seems like a bit of a stretch though - a carbon road frame of 1 kilo is pretty light (2.2 lbs) and aluminum road frames of about 3 pounds are pretty average - accounting for about a 0.8 pound difference. There are lighter carbon frames, and lighter aluminum ones, but a 3.5 pound weight difference would be pretty extreme. Modern road steel frames are under 4 pounds, so carbon at one kilo would still only be 1.8 pound difference. Current Cannondale CAAD 13 aluminum road frames come in at 1.18kg / 2.6 pounds - cutting that weight difference still more.

Also, just comparing stack and bb height(Topstone LG, SystemSix 56cm): Topstone stack 61cm, reach 39.4cm, bb height 28.4cm; System Six (road race frame) stack 60, reach 40, bb height 27.1. Plus the Topstone has a riser stem, the System has a horizontal stem. So the bar height is at least an inch different, where it affects aero efficiency. I'd venture a guess that your road bike has lower bars. This is the reason I suggested flipping the stem for road days/weeks.

I'm not a fan of carbon frames. Carbon fiber has benefits - but it's brittleness really gets in the way of durability. Using weight as it's primary selling factor causes a lot of issues that could easily be solved by just making the CF frame heavier (but still comparable with AL). You'd still get the ability to make it aero, put material where it is most highly stressed, etc.; but with heavier wall thicknesses you'd get away from the crack sensitivity problems. For the most part - it adds cost. For the $1,000 difference in frame cost, I believe that money would be better spent moving up a groupset or two, or getting nicer wheels.

Catmandoo · Dec 18, 2022

The weight difference is what is reported on the Cannondale Topstone FB page. Different wheels as well between the 2, so I have no doubt its correct. Ive no idea what the frame weights are.

As well, I think the aluminum Topstone 1 at $2300 is the top of the aluminum bikes. Mix of GRX 600/800 stuff. The carbon with a lefty fork is $7850, their carbon with mixed GRX 600/800 is $3000

BackWoodsHick · Dec 18, 2022

I should have said my frame is steel (custom -- but still less $$$$ than plastic). For me, fit and comfort were more important criteria than weight (and we are talking less than a full water bottle difference).

abeckstead · Dec 18, 2022

Checkout the Lauf Seigla with 1x12.

Fast, versatile and capable bike. If you are a strong climber I don't feel 1x is a limitation and I love the simplicity. Traction on very steep climbs is more of an issue than the gearing. Sure, you give up some top end too. My gearing tops out around 38ish mph. When my cassette wears out I'll be changing to the e-13 helix race that is 9-45.

Dkayak · Dec 18, 2022

You have many, many wonderful options. The one clear choice for your needs is a 2X drivetrain. A second wheel set is also a pretty obvious need, but what sort of wheel and tire for each is where the possibilities explode.

I do like your idea of creating some separation via 650B or a 40-45 mm wide 700C tire on a wider rim for volume/shape for gravel. A good 30 mm road slick on light “aero-friendly” rims would be ideal for road use. This way a quick wheel swap gives you two very different bikes.

I can‘t imagine any reason to avoid carbon frames these days. They’re well-proven in road, gravel, and MTB applications. Some even carry lifetime warranties. Materials, layups, and quality are very well understood by now, so unless you’re a Clyde there’s no real risk of breaking one. And if you’re a Clyde on an aluminum or steel frame you’ll break other stuff too, like spokes and seat rails, but also frame welds. That doesn’t sound like you though.

Dunnigan · Dec 18, 2022

norcalbike said:
Are we talking long flat gravel roads, or west coast style where there’s still a lot of winch and plummet on fire roads?

No fire road climbs or descents around here, but rolling midwest hills. I'm thinking shorter versions of Unbound, BWR, and 3-surface racing with tarmac, gravel, and single track. I train on pavement quite a bit, so I'd like something that is responsive when I'm hammering out intervals. I won't be doing any loaded touring, and my legs are not up for 100 or 200 mile races now, and that's not really in my racing goals at this point. I love XC racing, and need a new second bike for training, and it seems all the fast XC guys also race gravel. So I'm thinking rather than a straight road racing bike, something that can race shorter (~60 miles) gravel events or mixed surface events.

Dkayak · Dec 21, 2022

numbnuts · Dec 30, 2022

Dunnigan said:
Ok, my last post asking for advice on a new bike I said no gravel. But I guess I lied....now gravel is looking more interesting. So my bike dreams are shifting.

For example, this ride looks like fun, with mix of tarmac, gravel, and single track: Rule of Three

I've also been watching videos on the Belgium Waffle Ride and Unbound, and those look like some good times, although I would be up for the shorter versions of those races.

So I'm thinking a fast gravel bike would be the best way to go, something like the Checkpoint SL, Crux, Aspero, Exploro Racemax, etc. Any other that should be on that list?

It will see plenty of road miles for training, shorter gravel races (60 miles or less for now), and mixed surface races. So it needs to handle pavement without being demoralizingly slow, and be able to fly on buff single track.

Can one bike get me tight gear ratios for hammering on the road and still give me a gear to climb the trails?

The BWR is great, the first one for 2023 is in AZ and they offer a non 138 mile version called the wafer. But, if you're doing the BWR, go all in, you'll only regret it for 7 to 12 hours.... I was in the same boat after last race season. I raced an OPEN WI.DE. and it was great, but not as "snappy" as I wanted. I looked at all the same bikes you list and more and settled on the ALLIED echo. The echo is basically a road race bike, with sliding front and rear drop outs that allow more slack geo, longer wheel base and 700c 40mm tires. Its about as racy of a gravel bike as they come.

Regarding your last question, I have had good luck with 42 to 46 front chainring and a eagle 10-52 AXS mullet setup. This also allows use of an AXS wireless dropper.

Dunnigan · Jan 5, 2023

The 2022 Specialized Crux is one of the bikes in the final round of my consideration, and I'm looking at the Comp and Expert wondering what is making the Expert cost 2k more. $500 or $600 for the better wheels, not sure what the AXS costs more than the mechanical Rival, but I'm not seeing things that add up to 2k. I might be able to buy the Comp, buy the different parts, and still be less than the Expert. Am I missing something? Maybe the answer is "it's Specialized, don't ask"?

Fast Gravel Bikes

Dunnigan

eb1888

lewis9

BackWoodsHick

xjbaylor

Catmandoo

benjpi

norcalbike

Funoutside

Catmandoo

benjpi

Catmandoo

BackWoodsHick

abeckstead

Dkayak

Dunnigan

Dkayak

numbnuts

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