Seeking opinions on the trend towards steeper seat tube angles

vikb · Nov 15, 2021

For a HT ~74 deg unsagged STA works for me with a ~140-150mm fork.. I don't need a steep STA for climbs. I can just slide forward on the saddle for the short periods of time that are needed.

Dedo verde · Dec 20, 2021

hi folks, i think a lot about steep seat tube angle and when i crashed my last bike i order a custom frame with 77º on ST angle and 70° on the head and, for me, its works veeeeery nice!

someone did anything similar?

VegasSingleSpeed · Dec 20, 2021

The setback on that seatpost, and having your saddle adjusted about as far rearward as it'll go, offsets the steep seattube angle. That's like having a 74 or 75-degree seat-tube with a 'normal', low-offset seatpost.

dr.welby · Dec 22, 2021

Dedo verde said:
hi folks, i think a lot about steep seat tube angle and when i crashed my last bike i order a custom frame with 77º on ST angle and 70° on the head and, for me, its works veeeeery nice!

Look for scans of two Bicycle Guide magazine articles from 80s/90s:

Alexi Grewal's Clark Kent AX-1 Bike Forums - View Single Post - 30 Years Ago: December 1990 in Bicycling magazine

Roosa Project / Quintana Roo review : and

Dedo verde · Dec 23, 2021

dr.welby said:
Look for scans of two Bicycle Guide magazine articles from 80s/90s:

Alexi Grewal's Clark Kent AX-1 Bike Forums - View Single Post - 30 Years Ago: December 1990 in Bicycling magazine

Roosa Project / Quintana Roo review : and

nice bikes, tks for share it

i realized its not any inovation since i start to think about, but i´m so begginer in this bike world and,
even though i didnt find any gravel bike whith steep st, its not my inovation,
the reason for adopted this is in order to shorten CS and still fit big tires(47mm in my bike) and, its alow to make a small frame as possible and, because of it, more stiffer i guess

sorry about talk too much, im a lonely rider =P

XC Only · Nov 9, 2022

pvd said:
If you live where it is flatter, steep seat angles are terrible. Basically, anywhere where you have a lot of traversing. I live in the SF bay area and ride the real stuff. I tend toward a 74.5 to 75 degree effective seat angle on a hardtail. On a full suspension, 76 to 76.5 degrees.

Manufacturers are doing them more everywhere as it makes bike manufacturing easier and cheaper.

I'm in the Bay Area as well, and I'm with you on the steep seat angles, 76 degrees is what is on the Kona Honzo now, and I think it is a tad steep--75 degrees would be ideal for me. I'm originally from the East Coast and moved to SF in 2004, which might as well be considered the dark ages in terms of mountain bike technology, but I distinctly recall needing to get the zero offset seatpost and scooting the saddle forward as well as getting a 120mm stem to deal with the steeper, more sustained climbing here. Changes which if I could magically conjure up the bike I had then and measure it would probably give an effective ST of 73 to 74 degrees.

I recently took the Honzo up to Bend, OR, and on that kind of terrain, I constantly wanted to, and eventually did scoot the saddle back all the way--relatively flat/rolling with lots of pedaling.

On a side note, as a part-time industrial designer, I find it fascinating looking at how mountain bikes have changed, and to assume the consumer is somehow forced a product is only somewhat true. Take the previous comment regarding flat pedals and it's relationship to seat tube angles. It's a feedback loop, where the end-user definitely "likes" something, but can't quite say why they like it. Could the reason be that someone likes a steeper seat tube angle be because of steeper terrain, or because they have switched to flat pedals and ride that style pedal more? The answer may be both.

eri · Nov 9, 2022

I'm not really sure whats going on here. When its steep climbing I'm not sitting so want the seat back out of the way, and steep descents I want the seat dropped so I don't care there either.

When its not steep and I'm sitting and driving I want to be balanced over the bike with my legs supporting my weight, so I still don't want the seat jammed forward. I've got a honzo and I'd say my seat 'center' is back 3/4" from the axis of the seat tube, its fine. I could jam it forward quite a bit if I wanted, which emulates a steep seat tube but no thanks!

547319 · Nov 9, 2022

eri said:
I'm not really sure whats going on here. When its steep climbing I'm not sitting so want the seat back out of the way, and steep descents I want the seat dropped so I don't care there either.

When its not steep and I'm sitting and driving I want to be balanced over the bike with my legs supporting my weight, so I still don't want the seat jammed forward. I've got a honzo and I'd say my seat 'center' is back 3/4" from the axis of the seat tube, its fine. I could jam it forward quite a bit if I wanted, which emulates a steep seat tube but no thanks!

I am confused. Do you not have 30+ min steep climbs? I cannot stand for .5-1 hour climbing steep loose surfaces while the back wheel skips and slides everywhere. Sure short sections sometimes standing is the way to climb. But, over miles and miles of steep consistent climbs you have to sit and focus on keeping traction to the rear wheel.

Appropriately steep STAs help with that. Note - Appropriately steep for me is somewhere in the realm of 74-75 degrees. Closer to 74 for an all day all terrain bike. Even less steep on anything that sees huge mileage (gravel bike) on tamer terrain.

STA to me is very very terrain and bike dependent. The STA I want for climbing mountains is different for long flat rides (I get around this by not doing long flat rides)

eri · Nov 9, 2022

cassieno said:
I am confused. Do you not have 30+ min steep climbs? I cannot stand for .5-1 hour climbing steep loose surfaces while the back wheel skips and slides everywhere. Sure short sections sometimes standing is the way to climb. But, over miles and miles of steep consistent climbs you have to sit and focus on keeping traction to the rear wheel.

Appropriately steep STAs help with that. Note - Appropriately steep for me is somewhere in the realm of 74-75 degrees. Closer to 74 for an all day all terrain bike. Even less steep on anything that sees huge mileage (gravel bike) on tamer terrain.

STA to me is very very terrain and bike dependent. The STA I want for climbing mountains is different for long flat rides (I get around this by not doing long flat rides)

yes, for me 30-45 ish is about it for continuous steep, average rides around here are 300-450 ft per mile, but its natural terrain so its only max effort oh no ‘steep’ for up to about 50 ft at a time. Fwiw im still mostly on singlespeed. Theres a fire road here that is more than 75 minutes nearly continuous out of saddle, but i cant think of a natural trail thafs so continuous.

funny you mention dicy grip, is the slippy areas that are best served out of saddle: out of saddle ive got all my weight on back wheel for grip, and can lunge to clear steps. Cant sit when its loose or slippy, back wheel needs weight for grip.

But my ‘not steep sta’ bikes are 74-74.5… sounds like we are vigorously agreeing. There are steeper sta bikes and i just dont see the charm, i think its an error.

louiesquared · Nov 9, 2022

My preference for a steep or slack STA really depends on the reach and stack. Changing just one of those measurements can greatly affect a bike.

Hrodulf · Dec 12, 2022

Switched hardtails recently and went up from a 73.5 STA to a 75 STA and I love it.

Climbing goes way more relaxed, especially steep climbs or climbs with obstacles. Would I recommend it to a friend ? Yes you bet !

eri · Dec 13, 2022

louiesquared said:
My preference for a steep or slack STA really depends on the reach and stack. Changing just one of those measurements can greatly affect a bike.

Hrodulf said:
Switched hardtails recently and went up from a 73.5 STA to a 75 STA and I love it.

Climbing goes way more relaxed, especially steep climbs or climbs with obstacles. Would I recommend it to a friend ? Yes you bet !

Hey so... I feel like I've always been able to put my seat where I want it, regardless of sta. You get a few inches of forward/back choice for seat position. A degree of sta gives me approximately 1/2" of saddle motion.

Instead of crediting sta, why not just say you like your saddle more forward?

XC Only · Dec 13, 2022

eri said:
Hey so... I feel like I've always been able to put my seat where I want it, regardless of sta. You get a few inches of forward/back choice for seat position. A degree of sta gives me approximately 1/2" of saddle motion.

Instead of crediting sta, why not just say you like your saddle more forward?

Regarding where the saddle is in relation to the bottom bracket, that is true. What's different though is that bikes that come with steep seat angles today ALSO have longer reaches to compensate (among other things)--so it may be the combination of the 2 or more that make a particular rider like a bike, and all they attribute it too is "steep seat angle."

Generally speaking, even those un-initiated or don't care to dissect technical details feel that on today's bikes, they feel like they are more stable and sit "in-between" the wheels instead of "on top" of them. That's a combination of longer wheelbases as a result of slack head angles, long reaches, long chainstays.

dysfunction · Dec 13, 2022

At over 6', I dig no longer sitting behind the rear axle.

louiesquared · Dec 13, 2022

eri said:
Hey so... I feel like I've always been able to put my seat where I want it, regardless of sta. You get a few inches of forward/back choice for seat position. A degree of sta gives me approximately 1/2" of saddle motion.

Instead of crediting sta, why not just say you like your saddle more forward?

I am right on the edge of medium/large with most bikes and I prefer to size down. This means that I have my seat pretty high. A slacker seat tube will push the seat further back as you raise it up. Depending on how high the seat is and how slack the seat tube is, sometimes moving the seat forward is not enough.

eri · Dec 13, 2022

XC Only said:
Regarding where the saddle is in relation to the bottom bracket, that is true. What's different though is that bikes that come with steep seat angles today ALSO have longer reaches to compensate (among other things)--so it may be the combination of the 2 or more that make a particular rider like a bike, and all they attribute it too is "steep seat angle."

Generally speaking, even those un-initiated or don't care to dissect technical details feel that on today's bikes, they feel like they are more stable and sit "in-between" the wheels instead of "on top" of them. That's a combination of longer wheelbases as a result of slack head angles, long reaches, long chainstays.

Ok.

1 place hands where you want relative to head tube.
2 Now select frame with reach that makes you happy standing (rad, relative to bb center and bar width)
3 Finally position seat where you need it for seated comfort.

Boom, done. If above can be achieved the frame fits, otherwise… it doesnt.

4 decide if you are happy with csl and front wheel placement. I still love short csl but mostly climb standing.

the choice in 2 is premised by 1, 3 by 2, 4 by 3. You cant start with sta, its pretty far down the stack.

4 is deciding, after youve confirmed fit, that weight distribution on wheels makes you happy..

i simply wouldnt buy a bike with 75 degree sta, seat placement would be impossible. Ditto for 71 degrees. But everything in between is fine because my saddle has long rails.

dysfunction · Dec 13, 2022

It's not only about ass to hands or pedals.

drdre · Dec 13, 2022

drdre said:
I'm not a frame builder but I can tell you that my l45 disk is disintegrating and my bike with 77 sta helps it and my bike with 74 probably actually hurts it.

I second almost exactly this sentence with the swap of "probably" to "absolutely". I might not be riding now if that trend had'nt occurred.

The flip side of the coin is that if you have wrist issues, the reverse is likely. Definitely a bit more weight on the arms.

XC Only · Dec 14, 2022

eri said:
Ok.

1 place hands where you want relative to head tube.
2 Now select frame with reach that makes you happy standing (rad, relative to bb center and bar width)
3 Finally position seat where you need it for seated comfort.

Boom, done. If above can be achieved the frame fits, otherwise… it doesnt.

4 decide if you are happy with csl and front wheel placement. I still love short csl but mostly climb standing.

the choice in 2 is premised by 1, 3 by 2, 4 by 3. You cant start with sta, its pretty far down the stack.

4 is deciding, after youve confirmed fit, that weight distribution on wheels makes you happy..

i simply wouldnt buy a bike with 75 degree sta, seat placement would be impossible. Ditto for 71 degrees. But everything in between is fine because my saddle has long rails.

I won't argue with how you decide on how to make your bike fit and/or your decisions on how to evaluate which bikes to buy.

Bike geometry is inter-related, which is the point I made--not to mention external factors such as the type of riding that is en-vogue and the creation of new trails. The geometry that drives sales (often times driven by fashion), simply doesn't work with everyone, everywhere.

Seeking opinions on the trend towards steeper seat tube angles

vikb

Dedo verde

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