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Ohlins Damper vs Charger 3

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#42 ·
mafflin said:
Image


Here's a gif showing construction details and oil flow of Charger 3.
Even to my non-professional eye it looks like a complete bullshit.

However the new Zeb air spring feels very good compared the old one.
Click to expand...
It's correct for compression flows and it's an intricate mechanism which works just like it's supposed to. They've exaggerated the curve in the shim shown on the base-valve piston.
The problem is it has been designed to do things we don't want.
 
#43 ·
Probably I should have said "bullshit for mtb".
Even leaving the dished valve seat aside, restricting the high speed flow (actually any flow) before it reaches the shim stack looks a bit like bullshit to me.
I'm not a specialist and have no idea where this mechanism would make sense but for this application the idea of shim preload or even something like foxes VVC looks much better to me.
 
#44 ·
mafflin said:
Probably I should have said "bullshit for mtb".
Even leaving the dished valve seat aside, restricting the high speed flow (actually any flow) before it reaches the shim stack looks a bit like bullshit to me.
I'm not a specialist and have no idea where this mechanism would make sense but for this application the idea of shim preload or even something like foxes VVC looks much better to me.
Click to expand...
Yep. Charger 2.1 was better.
 
#45 ·
Adodero said:
The gap in understanding suspension between someone like Dougal and someone writing a pinkbike review is massive, and that's putting it lightly. Most reviewers just don't have a clue and especially compared to a suspension tech like Dougal. Reviewers also tend to go on about how great something new is, then when the new iteration of it comes out, all of a sudden it is addressing problems with the previous (current) version that they never mentioned. I can near guarantee when the Charger 3.1 or 4 or whatever comes out, they are all of a sudden gonna be talking about how harsh the previous iteration was and the new one improves on it.
Click to expand...
I've been riding mountain bikes for a very, very long time and used a good many suspension products along the way. All of what you wrote is spot-on. The "professional" reviews are a joke for the very reasons that you outlined.
 
#46 ·
Those reviews are dual faced, right?

You have the review of the product but then you, the reader, are also a product and the reviewer at some level for most sites has an incentive, even if it is implicit or at a subconscious level, to link the two.

Reviewers that don't do this aren't going to be found in your mainstream sources or they are going to be unemployed (they don't go along with the game the right way) and that is true for lots of stuff beyond mountain bikes - capitalism needs sales and you get sales more easily from hype because solid products that do what it says they do on the tin aren't as interesting to sell and opine about vs the newest latest greatest most amazingness thing every (until the next revision).

Example - the latest Fox whatever the eff vs the latest Rockshox ultramagnetic fabulous magic widget - you won't believe what happens next in our head to head blabbity blabbity yadda fest.

Like Howard Zinn said - 'you can't be neutral on a moving train' and finding interesting stone cold sober opinions or even (gasp) comparisons can be as rare as hen's teeth sometimes but they are out there you just have to work for it and be able to see what isn't said sometimes (or who is saying/not saying it).

But I digress...
 
#47 ·
Good lord, next we're gonna get into implicit bias.
 
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#49 ·
Dougal said:
In my opinion Charger 3 has been designed this way solely to work with the low force actuators on the Flight Attendant. Allowing one LSC dial to give a big increase in damping and allowing HSC to be a low force dial moving a stepped plunger. But doing that has compromised the entire thing.
Click to expand...
But Charger 3 isn't compatible with Flight Attendant. Can you explain how you reason to get this opinion?
 
#50 ·
niklasdr said:
But Charger 3 isn't compatible with Flight Attendant. Can you explain how you reason to get this opinion?
Click to expand...
Product planning.
You don't introduce a fancy gimmick and then make it not compatible with the damper you're about to release.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Well I had my first ride with my Ohlins RXF38 last weekend and it blew away the Fox 38 I had on there before. Mind you, I had the new fork rebuilt with a 180mm spring and the bushings were checked. I'm super happy with it. The air spring worked better compared to the 38 (even with a Runt installed) and so did the damper compared to the Grip2. I can't comment on the Zeb but I have no issues with any of the Ohlins stuff I have.

I suppose my alternative would have been Craig's Avlanche hybrid system or the Smashpot and Avalanche cartridge. The crazy part is Craig's cartridge hasn't changed a whole lot since the late 90s (which shows all this other stuff is gimmicky).
 
#52 ·
Christopher Robin said:
Well I had my first ride with my Ohlins RXF38 last weekend and it blew away the Fox 38 I had on there before. Mind you, I had the new fork rebuilt with a 180mm spring and the bushings were checked. I'm super happy with it. The air spring worked better compared to the 38 (even with a Runt installed) and so did the damper compared to the Grip2. I can't comment on the Zeb but I have no issues with any of the Ohlins stuff I have.
Click to expand...
Can also confirm my experience being the same - sold an RXF36, got a Fox 38, did not like, got an RXF38. It's an upgrade on all fronts and somehow also slightly lighter even with the more complex air spring.
 
#54 ·
silentG said:
What are your impressions of the RFX 36 vs RFX 38 as far as stiffness and overall package/ride?
Click to expand...
In short, the RXF36 is half a pound lighter, and correspondingly (noticeably) less stiff. I'd run it in a heartbeat on a 140-150mm or lighter all mountain bike, but 160mm+ I appreciate the extra fore/aft and torsional stiffness of the RXF38. The dampers are supposedly identical, but I feel like I can run more compression damping on the RXF38 without introducing harshness, but that could be due to binding in the RXF36 chassis due to flex, hard to say. The RXF38 feels more supple off the top, but Ohlins claims they boosted negative spring volume on the RXF38 so that makes sense. The RXF38 also runs a little more bath oil, which isn't saying much given how little the RXF36 ran, but I think it helps keep the fork feeling smoother longer.

Ultimately both forks still run too much rebound damping from stock, I'm going to need to get my RXF38 re-tuned just like I had my RXF36 done. Currently running rebound fully open and its too slow for my tastes.

If you want a deep dive on it, check out the RXF38 review on Blister Review - I do some reviewing with David over there and we generally agree on the RXF38 vs. the competition, including the RXF36.
 
#56 ·
zhendo said:
In short, the RXF36 is half a pound lighter, and correspondingly (noticeably) less stiff. I'd run it in a heartbeat on a 140-150mm or lighter all mountain bike, but 160mm+ I appreciate the extra fore/aft and torsional stiffness of the RXF38. The dampers are supposedly identical, but I feel like I can run more compression damping on the RXF38 without introducing harshness, but that could be due to binding in the RXF36 chassis due to flex, hard to say. The RXF38 feels more supple off the top, but Ohlins claims they boosted negative spring volume on the RXF38 so that makes sense. The RXF38 also runs a little more bath oil, which isn't saying much given how little the RXF36 ran, but I think it helps keep the fork feeling smoother longer.

Ultimately both forks still run too much rebound damping from stock, I'm going to need to get my RXF38 re-tuned just like I had my RXF36 done. Currently running rebound fully open and its too slow for my tastes.

If you want a deep dive on it, check out the RXF38 review on Blister Review - I do some reviewing with David over there and we generally agree on the RXF38 vs. the competition, including the RXF36.
Click to expand...
Thank you, high quality stuff there, sometimes you get the 'worst pos ever' or 'amaze-balls' but no info to help shade in the corners of the picture there.

Very much appreciated!
 
#58 · (Edited)
Image


The new one in gold and the old one is red.
The new one makes a larger negative chamber, allows you to put more pressure without losing the off the top sensitivity and thus provides more mid-stroke support.

As for me it still is a worse fork than 2.1 RC Lyrik with the old Debonair (with silver footnut) that I own. Being a lighter rider (below 80kg kitted) I don't feel any benefits from Zebs stiffness and Lyrik just feels more composed.
 
#59 ·
I have both a bike with a 2021/2022 Zeb Ultimate 170mm with Charger 2.1 and a bike with a 2023 Zeb Ultimate 180mm with Charger 3.

I weigh 80 kg kitted but like to smash into things with my fork and would say I am a fork heavy rider (pretty much always want to land front wheel first and initiate turns with my front wheel rather than with centered weight or with weight on the rear wheel. I feel I rely much on the fork to stay composed. For example, for the feel in my riding I rely on and love to have CushCore in my front tire, which dampens the blows and allows the front wheel to roll through obstacles as opposed to bouncing and being deflected off of obstacles.

On my 2021/2022 Zeb I have maxed out HSC and almost maxed out LSC damping (2 clicks from max damping) and I still have had to put in a second air token for it to not bottom out. I feel it rides quite far in the travel without much mid-stroke support. I feel putting in the second air token only saves the last part of the stroke and does not help to support any of the mid-stroke.
It is this bike I have given the last two months of riding to see if I can dial in my riding on.

The 2023 Zeb I feel has given me plenty of mid-stroke support. Though, I have only ridden this fork for a few weeks in spring before I had an injury that kept me off my bike for most part of this summer. I look forward to riding it again to compare against the other fork.
 
#60 ·
mafflin said:
View attachment 2011926

The new one in gold and the old one is red.
The new one makes a larger negative chamber, allows you to put more pressure without losing the off the top sensitivity and thus provides more mid-stroke support.

As for me it still is a worse fork than 2.1 RC Lyrik with the old Debonair (with silver footnut) that I own. Being a lighter rider (below 80kg kitted) I don't feel any benefits from Zebs stiffness and Lyrik just feels more composed.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you want the new Debonair+ air spring and the old 2.1 damper, if that were ever possible to configure the fork with.
 
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