Steel vs. Modern...

Tucson · Nov 27, 2022

eri said:
It sounds to me like he doesn't know any better. Its cheap though, and it is a nice bike.

Get the mojo for the street and parking in front of coffee shops, and then he can get a modern bike if he thinks it will help with the trails he wants to ride.

Haha!

Yea 40 years of MTB experience and I'm still wet behind the ears!

I'm confused why some of you guys are in the vintage bike forum...I mean ya git yer rocks off being arrogant?

I seriously doubt if some of you guys have any skills at all is you couldn't handle a trail with a hard tails steel bike! Actually pretty danged funny you'd not get off the pavement with a bike we conquered ALL the classic MTB trails! As I said I'm looking at modern ratings and if I can roll a double black diamond and you're stuck at the coffee shop sporting a man bun that's all we need to know!

eshew · Nov 27, 2022

What's the name of this double black trail? Different trail systems do have different ratings. A Whistler double black or PNW double black might be different from a Florida double black.

It's not that we are saying it can't be done, but the double blacks around me would likely be unrideable with my vintage mtb's. I mean maybe if I went slow, picked some super clean lines and got lucky as well as taking all the ride arounds could ride 98% of the trail. But there are some mandatory drops that wouldn't be possible on the vintage bikes, well maybe possible but unlikely to have great outcomes for me or the bike.

Vintage hardtails on vintage trails are fun, vintage hardtails on modern double blacks, that's something that wouldn't be sustainable, recommended or safe.

Sparticus · Nov 27, 2022

This talk about vintage bikes riding just as well as ("the same as") modern bikes is insane.
Absolutely insane.
I mean, you know, unless you're just puttering around the neighborhood.
But if you're riding tech and hitting features, good luck with your small diameter wheeled, skinny tired, QR'd, ridiculously steep HTA, ridiculously slack STA, dropperless, three-ring circus.
There is NOTHING confidence inspiring about pre-2010 bikes, not to mention this: the real Capable Bike Revolution took wing around 2015.
I've been riding mountain bikes since 1985 -- typically averaged a new bike / year throughout the past 42 years.
That's 40+ bikes. I've loved almost every bike I've owned during those years BUT... I can tell you without a doubt that anyone who rides off-road in a spirited manner today is nothing less than amazed at how much more capable a 2022 bike is compared to a pre-2002 bike.
Geometry changes -- HUGE!
Improved suspension capability -- HUGE!
The dropper post -- changed the sport!
Wheels, tires, drivetrains, frame design & integrity... words can't even describe the enormity of the improvements in mountain bikes throughout the past 20+ years.
Especially the past 6-7 years.
A person would have to ride -- REALLY ride -- a modern bike to understand. And by 'really ride,' I mean hit stuff, go fast, push the bike to his/her/its limits.
Vintage bikes have a place in my heart but they have no place in my garage. I've owned a bunch of them.
But again, if puttering around MUPs is one's gig, then yeah, by all means a vintage bike will serve as well as a modern bike.
I mean, you know, that's just my opinion, man.

=sParty

Tucson · Nov 27, 2022

Sparticus said:
This talk about vintage bikes riding just as well as ("the same as") modern bikes is insane.
Absolutely insane.
I mean, you know, unless you're just puttering around the neighborhood.
But if you're riding tech and hitting features, good luck with your small diameter wheeled, skinny tired, QR'd, ridiculously steep HTA, ridiculously slack STA, dropperless, three-ring circus.
There is NOTHING confidence inspiring about pre-2010 bikes, not to mention this: the real Capable Bike Revolution took wing around 2015.
I've been riding mountain bikes since 1985 -- typically averaged a new bike / year throughout the past 42 years.
That's 40+ bikes. I've loved almost every bike I've owned during those years BUT... I can tell you without a doubt that anyone who rides off-road in a spirited manner today is nothing less than amazed at how much more capable a 2022 bike is compared to a pre-2002 bike.
Geometry changes -- HUGE!
Improved suspension capability -- HUGE!
The dropper post -- changed the sport!
Wheels, tires, drivetrains, frame design & integrity... words can't even describe the enormity of the improvements in mountain bikes throughout the past 20+ years.
Especially the past 6-7 years.
A person would have to ride -- REALLY ride -- a modern bike to understand. And by 'really ride,' I mean hit stuff, go fast, push the bike to his/her/its limits.
Vintage bikes have a place in my heart but they have no place in my garage. I've owned a bunch of them.
But again, if puttering around MUPs is one's gig, then yeah, by all means a vintage bike will serve as well as a modern bike.
I mean, you know, that's just my opinion, man.
=sParty

Haha!

That's pretty arrogant!

So you could bomb Noble Canyon and probably easily hit it at 20mph all the way....I'd have to go between 10-20mph. So what?!

You guys are saying it's impossible to ride an ultra technical trail but you're so arrogant you fail to realize the vast majority have been ridden by even full rigid bikes for decades.

The simple fact is you lack the skill set to ride a vintage style MTB and require the modern MTB to even consider riding what many of us have been riding since 1990!

Don't claim it's impossible.... it's just impossible for YOU!

Tucson · Nov 27, 2022

eshew said:
What's the name of this double black trail? Different trail systems do have different ratings. A Whistler double black or PNW double black might be different from a Florida double black.

It's not that we are saying it can't be done, but the double blacks around me would likely be unrideable with my vintage mtb's. I mean maybe if I went slow, picked some super clean lines and got lucky as well as taking all the ride arounds could ride 98% of the trail. But there are some mandatory drops that wouldn't be possible on the vintage bikes, well maybe possible but unlikely to have great outcomes for me or the bike.

Vintage hardtails on vintage trails are fun, vintage hardtails on modern double blacks, that's something that wouldn't be sustainable, recommended or safe.

As I said pretty much every trail from San Diego to Orange County. Look at Noble Canyon as a popular ride with lots of comments.

Reminds me of guitar forums where dudes will chime in boasting you can't play their style with your rig assuming everyone wants to play like you! Here's what some of you sound like: "A 1952 Telecaster through a Tweed Deluxe hahaha!? No way you can sound like Dimebag!"

eri · Nov 27, 2022

Tucson said:
As I said pretty much every trail from San Diego to Orange County. Look at Noble Canyon as a popular ride with lots of comments.

Reminds me of guitar forums where dudes will chime in boasting you can't play their style with your rig assuming everyone wants to play like you! Here's what some of you sound like: "A 1952 Telecaster through a Tweed Deluxe hahaha!? No way you can sound like Dimebag!"

im normally the guy getting compliment because im even on a singlespeed hardtail. Im much slower than on an fs bike but i like the action. I wont ride my trails on my vintage awesomeness because it would really suck. Theres unicyclists that do it but picking their way down trials style. Nope the trails im talking about are much newer than the bike. I love that youre defending these old bikes but…

like i said, same as doing it on a cx bike. Its possible, its scary and challenging. If thats your thing have at it. Awesome.

How about just try a new bike and see how it feels? Then you wont be arguing from a position of ignorance and can sincerely bag all over us with a vengence.

BansheeRune · Nov 27, 2022

MendonCycleSmith said:
Wait, is this the VRC or did I stumble into the Trekalizediantdale marketing departments coffee klatch?

Surprising to me that here, in the VRC, the discussion is "OMG, modern geometry is so much better" blah blah blah.

I still fail to really ever perceptibly feel the "modern geometry" and its vast improvements.

If I ride little wheels, they feel twitchy as hell and I put them in a different class of ride, but love and respect the passionate origins where they come from.

That said, my 84 Fat Chance Team, feels like so close to any of my modern sleds, it's freaky, so I guess it's not really new? Much like the single speed full suspension 29er I have from 1896.

From my first time on a 29 till now, I feel the wheel difference, I'm not noting rake and trail tweaks that some folks actually think "make these bikes rideable" compared to the earlier ones they kvetch about being so awful.

I swear, 3/4 of it simply people telling themselves anything they can, just to attempt justify being required to spend $7K to get in the door anymore.

Humans are pretty darn adaptable, ride what speaks to you, that you can find, and afford, and if you want steel, and something with a bit more modern sensibility, consider, perhaps, a Surly Krampus or Karate Mokey too. New or used, they'll get you home every time.

Discs are nice, tubeless is nice, bigger wheels and tires are honestly the biggest improvement for actual real world riders, but I'd venture a guess that the whole modern geometry blather isn't actually perceived by more than 15% of the rider populace and many in that clan are simply seeing the Emperors new clothes at that.

And I sell bikes for a living, have for over 30 years, and ride, and smile, zero appreciation for OMG MODERN GEOMETRY!!!

Slack geometry is not new to me in any way. Long front ends are not new either. I was fabricating frames that my knees didn't hit the bars on back in 1980! I hated using a mod trials bike stem for anything but a bloody doorstop. Fabricating custom was a great time in my life. Having a bike that felt like it was worthy in many ways including being tailored to this crash test dummy, priceless.

Would I give 7k for a bike in today's market, hells no, I'm tighter than Tom Thumbs ass!

BansheeRune · Nov 27, 2022

Sparticus said:
This talk about vintage bikes riding just as well as ("the same as") modern bikes is insane.
Absolutely insane.
I mean, you know, unless you're just puttering around the neighborhood.
But if you're riding tech and hitting features, good luck with your small diameter wheeled, skinny tired, QR'd, ridiculously steep HTA, ridiculously slack STA, dropperless, three-ring circus.
There is NOTHING confidence inspiring about pre-2010 bikes, not to mention this: the real Capable Bike Revolution took wing around 2015.
I've been riding mountain bikes since 1985 -- typically averaged a new bike / year throughout the past 42 years.
That's 40+ bikes. I've loved almost every bike I've owned during those years BUT... I can tell you without a doubt that anyone who rides off-road in a spirited manner today is nothing less than amazed at how much more capable a 2022 bike is compared to a pre-2002 bike.
Geometry changes -- HUGE!
Improved suspension capability -- HUGE!
The dropper post -- changed the sport!
Wheels, tires, drivetrains, frame design & integrity... words can't even describe the enormity of the improvements in mountain bikes throughout the past 20+ years.
Especially the past 6-7 years.
A person would have to ride -- REALLY ride -- a modern bike to understand. And by 'really ride,' I mean hit stuff, go fast, push the bike to his/her/its limits.
Vintage bikes have a place in my heart but they have no place in my garage. I've owned a bunch of them.
But again, if puttering around MUPs is one's gig, then yeah, by all means a vintage bike will serve as well as a modern bike.
I mean, you know, that's just my opinion, man.
=sParty

sParty, ya gotsta put your soapbox away when you're done, your mom doesn't werk here!

eshew · Nov 27, 2022

That's the issue, you think Noble knob is a difficult trail, it isn't. It's a Canadian green.

But if that's what you consider a black diamond trail to be, you'll be fine with either bike. Just don't bring your mojo to Whistler and you'll be ok

eri · Nov 27, 2022

eshew said:
That's the issue, you think Noble knob is a difficult trail, it isn't. It's a Canadian green.

But if that's what you consider a black diamond trail to be, you'll be fine with either bike. Just don't bring your mojo to Whistler and you'll be ok

Noble knob is greenish but it is absolutely stellar

Noble Knob

This hike up to a former lookout site provides spectacular views of Mount Rainier and the surrounding landscape.

www.wta.org

vintage trail that’d be perfect on a vintage bike.

Uncle Grumpy · Nov 27, 2022

MendonCycleSmith said:
I still fail to really ever perceptibly feel the "modern geometry" and its vast improvements.
If I ride little wheels, they feel twitchy as hell and I put them in a different class of ride, but love and respect the passionate origins where they come from.

I have all common MTB wheel sizes, 26, 27.5 and 29 across 12 MTBs. Each bike feels different but after about 200m, I stop noticing and each bike falls into place and I go to my happy place.

eri said:
you might be able to limp those old bikes down a modern blue/black, same as you can do it on a cx bike, but it’s dicey.

eshew said:
We probably ride very different trails. Classic trails aren't modern trails. At a certain point old just doesn't cut it. You or the bike or both just won't be able to handle the terrain.

You do realise that not everyone rides triple black diamond with sparkles trails? Like, some people just ride regular single tracks and fire trails and hit up the local bush tracks and... hold onto your home brew when I say this: have fun doing it.

I don't think anyone tossing up between a Mojo and a DV9 is really looking to "slay the gnar" or whatever it is the magazines are calling it this week.

Personally, I'm riding the same massive trail network today that I was 35 years ago. I ride it on 26, 27.5, 29 and 700c wheels, rigid, hardtail, dual suspension, softtail, 3x7, 3x8, 3x9, 2x9, 1x10, 1x11, 1x12 and 1x1. Those trails haven't somehow gotten harder with each product year. Horses for courses, though I do chuckle at taking a rigid bike down a track that I prefer to take my Santa Cruz Bronson on. I just ride it differently to how I might ride my Bronson. And you know what I don't get at the end of my rides? A fecking trophy.

It's fun, it's a hobby, it gets me out and keeps me fit, it's not a competition. I can finish a trail in 5 minutes or 20 minutes and the outcome is the same - no trophy except for the frigging smile. Wheee!

Sparticus said:
There is NOTHING confidence inspiring about pre-2010 bikes, not to mention this: the real Capable Bike Revolution took wing around 2015.

I was pretty confident pre-2010. But clearly I was kidding myself.

And while the Real Capable Bike Revolution didn't really kick off until approximately 2015, I'd add that the Super Mega Extreme Family Fun Hour Capable Bike Revolution didn't start until 2019 when we took an extra half a degree out of the head angles. Cut your damn retro crap my friend - there is NOTHING confidence inspiring about pre-2019 bikes. That's how hard core I am.

Tucson said:
The simple fact is you lack the skill set to ride a vintage style MTB and require the modern MTB to even consider riding what many of us have been riding since 1990!

As above, some trails have been built SINCE 1990 and are a whole new ball-game. They're called Black, Black Diamond, Double Black, Triple Black and Ultra Black with Mint Chips.

Anyway, that's settled, buy the Mojo. End of thread.

eshew said:
That's the issue, you think Noble knob is a difficult trail, it isn't. It's a Canadian green.

Yeah, and a Canadian Green is like a British Race Green, which is like an Australian Beige, which is like a Tanzanian Yellow. Face it, you're all gravel bikers if you haven't ridden a Portuguese Teal. And my dad is bigger than your dad...

Just ride your f**king bikes and stop taking it so damn seriously.

Grumps

Tucson · Nov 27, 2022

eshew said:
That's the issue, you think Noble knob is a difficult trail, it isn't. It's a Canadian green.

But if that's what you consider a black diamond trail to be, you'll be fine with either bike. Just don't bring your mojo to Whistler and you'll be ok

Noble CANYON! San Diego County.

Here's one review that relies on it being a shuttle but we always rode up and down so a 20 mile 100% work trail. ~2000 feet of climbing....

I didn't rate but just looked it up....supposed black diamond. it does require full attention on the dh.

Noble Canyon Mountain Bike Trail, Pine Valley, California

A phenomenal singletrack descent from alpine meadows through oak forests to the dry desert. Near Pine Valley, California.

www.mtbproject.com

eri · Nov 27, 2022

Tucson said:
Noble CANYON! San Diego County.

Here's one review that relies on it being a shuttle but we always rode up and down so a 20 mile 100% work trail. ~2000 feet of climbing....

I didn't rate but just looked it up....supposed black diamond. it does require full attention on the dh.

Noble Canyon Mountain Bike Trail, Pine Valley, California

A phenomenal singletrack descent from alpine meadows through oak forests to the dry desert. Near Pine Valley, California.

www.mtbproject.com

I was joking about noble knob, piling on the mistake. I’m overly prideful out our pnw trails but Your noble canyon looks pretty awesome too.

Weird thing here I think most everyone is overbiked, deluded into thinking an $8k enduro bike is needed for everything. Seems every family in Moab is on hightowers. But I do think there’s a capability that should be met to have a good time on the trail. Im frustrated if I can’t get low and pump, or get back to manual, and a modern fork sure helps with hand pain.

I’m just saying focus on fit and try a bunch of bikes. Stop worrying about the brand or component group. Play the field and Find your Cinderella. ‘Inexpensive’ modern hardtails are pretty great.

dysfunction · Nov 27, 2022

"Just getting back into mountain biking" yet sParty is arrogant.

This thread is Awesome!

Sparticus · Nov 27, 2022

dysfunction said:
"Just getting back into mountain biking" yet sParty is arrogant.

This thread is Awesome!

Assume you're referring to this post, Dys.
As for being arrogant, guilty as charged.
Arrogant perhaps, but not unable to ride a mountain bike in a spirited manner.
And not too arrogant to wait for riders like @Tucson at the tops or the bottoms of hills. Let's ride, Brother.
I like to push my abilities and the capabilities of my two-wheeled equipment as close to my/their limits as I dare, and today's equipment allows me to go WAY farther in that direction than yesterday's most capable equipment.
But like I said, that's just my personal -- ahem, arrogant -- opinion.
Have fun, Tucson. Seriously -- I mean it. That's really all that matters, isn't it.

=sParty

Tucson · Nov 27, 2022

Sparticus said:
Assume you're referring to this post, Dys.
As for being arrogant, guilty as charged.
Arrogant perhaps, but not unable to ride a mountain bike in a spirited manner.
And not too arrogant to wait for riders like @Tucson at the tops or the bottoms of hills. Let's ride, Brother.
I like to push my abilities and the capabilities of my two-wheeled equipment as close to my/their limits as I dare, and today's equipment allows me to go WAY farther in that direction than yesterday's most capable equipment.
But like I said, that's just my personal -- ahem, arrogant -- opinion.
Have fun, Tucson. Seriously -- I mean it. That's really all that matters, isn't it.
=sParty

Haha!

You don't want to race me up hill. I'm short with strong legs. My MTB can weigh as little as 18lbs. I've never lost an uphill challenge! That was the worst part for me on group rides...waiting like half an hour for the clydesdales to make it up!

Used to train for climbs. For fun I would ride Nate Harrison Grade in San Diego Co. 4000' to 5000' climb over maybe 9 miles with most of that the first 4 miles or so. I used to take the paved road up Palomar Mountain which was a "secret" winter training ride for TDF cyclists. Tony Rominger had the record back when I paid attention. Nate Harrison was steeper. Rates as a jeep trail as only a few of us wackos would ride bikes up it!

Downhill.... yeah you could finish, go home and take a shower and have a couple beers and get back to the parking lot just as I arrived!

That's the one thing holding me back from a new MTB is that I see complaints about climbing abilities. Could be soft riders used to shuttle rides but I think pushing 30lbs up hill takes a toll. I mean look! The industry has suckered dudes into thinking 30lbs is an acceptable weight for MTB. Heck! Now they have to have motors in them to climb and weight 50lbs!

I wish I could find more modern bikes my size. So far only occasionally on the used market...

Is the DV9 all that bad? I hope to have a look at it this week.....AND the steel Mojo which I'll probably snag either as $450 is a steal IMO!

colker1 · Nov 27, 2022

I own the mojo. I like my fat chance better since it does not need a susp fork. Never liked those. Also, the fat fits me better and has a taller BB. The mojo is fun on fast flowing trails but once rocks, drops, steeps appear, the Fat city wicked is my favourite bike.

Sparticus · Nov 27, 2022

Tucson said:
Haha!

You don't want to race me up hill. I'm short with strong legs. My MTB can weigh as little as 18lbs. I've never lost an uphill challenge! That was the worst part for me on group rides...waiting like half an hour for the clydesdales to make it up!

Used to train for climbs. For fun I would ride Nate Harrison Grade in San Diego Co. 4000' to 5000' climb over maybe 9 miles with most of that the first 4 miles or so. I used to take the paved road up Palomar Mountain which was a "secret" winter training ride for TDF cyclists. Tony Rominger had the record back when I paid attention. Nate Harrison was steeper. Rates as a jeep trail as only a few of us wackos would ride bikes up it!

Downhill.... yeah you could finish, go home and take a shower and have a couple beers and get back to the parking lot just as I arrived!

That's the one thing holding me back from a new MTB is that I see complaints about climbing abilities. Could be soft riders used to shuttle rides but I think pushing 30lbs up hill takes a toll. I mean look! The industry has suckered dudes into thinking 30lbs is an acceptable weight for MTB. Heck! Now they have to have motors in them to climb and weight 50lbs!

I wish I could find more modern bikes my size. So far only occasionally on the used market...

Is the DV9 all that bad? I hope to have a look at it this week.....AND the steel Mojo which I'll probably snag either as $450 is a steal IMO!

Thanks, man. There's no doubt in my mind that you'd kick my ass going uphill.

I like to think I used to be good at climbing but as of today I'm old... my glory days behind me. I wouldn't even give you a run for your money.
As for descending, I need all the help I can get, which is one of the key reasons I invest in newer, more capable bikes as often as I do.
They make pushing the envelope safer and I need that. These old bones are getting more brittle every year. I don't like the idea of any of them breaking.
But anyway, yeah -- let's go and I'm sure we'll have fun riding together. That's something I miss about the early days -- camaraderie seemed like priority #1 in the sport of mountain biking back in the previous century.

=sParty

eri · Nov 27, 2022

Tucson said:
Haha!

You don't want to race me up hill. I'm short with strong legs. My MTB can weigh as little as 18lbs. I've never lost an uphill challenge! That was the worst part for me on group rides...waiting like half an hour for the clydesdales to make it up!

Used to train for climbs. For fun I would ride Nate Harrison Grade in San Diego Co. 4000' to 5000' climb over maybe 9 miles with most of that the first 4 miles or so. I used to take the paved road up Palomar Mountain which was a "secret" winter training ride for TDF cyclists. Tony Rominger had the record back when I paid attention. Nate Harrison was steeper. Rates as a jeep trail as only a few of us wackos would ride bikes up it!

Downhill.... yeah you could finish, go home and take a shower and have a couple beers and get back to the parking lot just as I arrived!

That's the one thing holding me back from a new MTB is that I see complaints about climbing abilities. Could be soft riders used to shuttle rides but I think pushing 30lbs up hill takes a toll. I mean look! The industry has suckered dudes into thinking 30lbs is an acceptable weight for MTB. Heck! Now they have to have motors in them to climb and weight 50lbs!

I wish I could find more modern bikes my size. So far only occasionally on the used market...

Is the DV9 all that bad? I hope to have a look at it this week.....AND the steel Mojo which I'll probably snag either as $450 is a steal IMO!

No dv9 isn't 'all that bad', just it sounds like you've got an unhealthy bias towards ibis. Just saying branch out a little, see what is out there. Sounds like you're in a place with a lot of riding opportunities, means there's got to be a bunch of used bikes available. Take your time and let it come to you. Buy once cry once? Did you watch those leelikesbikes fit videos?

The first two bikes I bought when I returned to mtb were too small. I 'knew' my desired geo, but it was totally wrong for the post 90s bikes. When I bought an ibis tranny 29 I needed an XL to get the fit right for me and even that was an inch less reach than what I really wanted. Buying an ibis? Be careful about the fit.

Easiest thing, figure out the a priori fit you want. Ignore the makers 'size' and focus on the frame that fits you. There's no magic here. Then look at geo charts to see if bike can be made to fit. I give you an internet promise that the new style fit will make you happy.

I agree heavy bikes suck and I also love to climb. My ss is 22# with a 140 fork and a dhf on front. That low weight feels good even if right now my gut is bigger than ever.

Steel vs. Modern...

Tucson

eshew

Sparticus

Tucson

Tucson

eri

BansheeRune

BansheeRune

eshew

eri

Noble Knob

Uncle Grumpy

Tucson

Noble Canyon Mountain Bike Trail, Pine Valley, California

eri

Noble Canyon Mountain Bike Trail, Pine Valley, California

dysfunction

Sparticus

Tucson

colker1

Sparticus

eri

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