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Shimano 12 speed can officially F’ right off.

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#41 ·
UPSed said:
Reading posts like this makes me wonder if I'm riding on borrowed time. My current XT drivetrain has 3,200 miles with over 500k of climbing on it and the chain is nowhere near the 0.50 mark. Shifting is still buttery smooth.
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I believe a lot of MTBR users don’t have their XT drivetrain adjusted properly. It’s the best Drivetrain Shimano has produced in my opinion. Unfortunately XT 12 sp shifters are breaking. People here talking about clunky, or bad shifting feel is suspect in my opinion. Mine has been fantastic since day 1. The chain breakage on the other hand is eye opening. However, if there are so many people (in this thread) that cannot adjust their drivetrain accurately, maybe that has something to do with chain plates breaking? I’m not sure If that is true though.
 
#46 ·
I just want to know why 11/12spd gets all grumbly and needs lubed pretty much every ride. Not even long or muddy rides either and in all gears...seems anything over 8-10 miles and it sounds/feels like my bottom bracket is starting to go.
(with all brands I've tried - Shimano, KMC, SRAM)
 
#47 ·
noapathy said:
want to know ... 11/12spd gets all grumbly and needs lubed pretty much every ride.
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what lube are you using? are you riding fine sand?

I used RocknRoll gold (awful with fine sand) muc off (good for 1/2-1 ride).
After switching to silca super secret things are quiet and nice. I brush the drivetrain after each ride (between 25 to 40 km usually) to remove dust and sand.

I ride in dusty sandy conditions. XTR 12 chain.

Oren
 
#48 ·
I have run all the same Shimano XTR 11-speed on one of my hardtails for 7 years with only a few small issues.
I had a Shimano XT 12-speed drivetrain which I liked and thought the shifting was really good but only rode that bike 200 miles or so before stupidly selling it...
However, I know a lot of folks who have a lot of mechanicals on the trail with 12-speed Shimano stuff.

I have run all SRAM 12-speed stuff on my last few bikes and have zero issues over thousands of trail miles. XX1 cassettes, while expensive, are extremely durable and are easy to clean and seem to stay cleaner on the trail (clear dirt/mud better?). XO and XX1 chains last for ever. I have had GX, XO, XX1, and GX AXS derailleurs on various bikes... the difference between GX and XX1 is barely noticeable, IMO, and is great across the whole range. AXS is, of course, really nice... but batteries.

I do really like Shimano's XT and XTR cranks, though. I am scared of breaking SRAM carbon cranks on rocky trails.
I recently switched over to 5dev cranks on my favorite bike, to try 165mm cranks, and really like those as well.
 
#49 ·
OrenPerets said:
what lube are you using? are you riding fine sand?

I used RocknRoll gold (awful with fine sand) muc off (good for 1/2-1 ride).
After switching to silca super secret things are quiet and nice. I brush the drivetrain after each ride (between 25 to 40 km usually) to remove dust and sand.

I ride in dusty sandy conditions. XTR 12 chain.

Oren
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RnR Gold and previously White Lightning Epic, but nothing particularly sandy most days. On areas with sand, it's obviously more pronounced/expected. Lately, it's been pretty dusty and that seems to make it happen sooner as well, but it's every ride and even when the bike comes home clean the chain gets like this. I'd kind of gotten used to it until I rode the old hardtail with 10spd and it was much quieter, even with the dust.

Holy smokes, that Silca's expensive! Anything that doesn't cost 5x the already overpriced chain lubes? I run Deore/SLX chains lately since that's what was available, but as mentioned it happens with multiple brands.
 
#50 · (Edited)
noapathy said:
RnR Gold ….
Holy smokes, that Silca's expensive! Anything that doesn't cost 5x the already overpriced chain lubes? I run Deore/SLX chains lately since that's what was available, but as mentioned it happens with multiple brands.
Click to expand...


RnR was the noisiest.
I think they changed the lube at some point to make it flight-able and it lost some of it’s performance then.

Silca SS is not cheap. however, the bottle I have lasts already ~3-4 months and it’s not half way out.
It’s really really good. Chain is super clean.

You need to get the chain REALLY clean before you apply first time.

One application lasts ~3-4 rides. Once in 1.5 weeks.

Only dry conditions experience at this point. Winter is coming, and we’ll see how it fares in the winter.

Oren


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#51 ·
masterp2 said:
"Well if you want to utilize hyperglide+, you need a Shimano chain."

I believe if you dive further, you will find this statement to be false. Don't believe everything shimano says.
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I think the statement is correct. I've used a KMC 12 speed chain on my Shimano 12 speed drivetrain and I don't think I ever get the + shift, just the regular hyperglide shift. The difference is rather subtle though.
 
#52 ·
FrankS29 said:
Well if you want to utilize hyperglide+, you need a Shimano chain.
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This statement is too general to be true.

There are two features which make Shimmy 12 speed different to 11 and earlier.

The first one is are the outer chain links being somewhat longer, protruding over the inner links by a smidge. This makes the chain more laterally stiffer, thus allows the entire drivetrain to operate at a longer b-gap. I think this feature is only on 12 speed chain. Obviously, such chain is going to work fine on just about any 12 speed drivetrain. I run one a home grown 3x12 on a chinese cassette.

The second are the opposing shift ramps present on their 11-51, 10-51 and 10-45 cassettes ( and also on some road 12 speed stuff ). These aid with the shifting from larger to smaller cog and, obviously, are going to work with non-Shimano chains as well.

HG+ sometimes refers to both chain and cassette, but sometimes to cassettes only and sometimes is not even mentioned, in spite clearly being present to a degree. Case in point - Deore 11-51 cassette has 'HG+" without being labelled as HG+ and 11 speed chain is the same as it was in earlier groups.

While technically Shimano chains and cassettes are mated to each other, always have been, using off brand chains works fine, albeit a little more clunkily.
 
#53 ·
hoolie said:
I believe a lot of MTBR users don’t have their XT drivetrain adjusted properly. It’s the best Drivetrain Shimano has produced in my opinion. Unfortunately XT 12 sp shifters are breaking. People here talking about clunky, or bad shifting feel is suspect in my opinion.
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Somewhere in here is the truth.

On the one hand, these shifters/drivetrains are clunky as hell. I shot a video of it with no chain attached, there literally is "no adjustment", that's just how they designed it, likely to prevent accidental "double-tap" shifts with the double-shift function. The lighter action of SLX seems to confirm this.

On the other hand, these drivetrains are widespread, being used by pros and amateurs alike. Shimano usually doesn't put out crap. Sometimes they miss the mark on what they estimate people want, but it's rare that their stuff isn't at least functional. Yes, they had all the 12spd shifter springs breaking on XT and XTR, but it seems like that's been fixed now. Despite not being their best day, their 11spd stuff was functional. The 12 is a much better effort and again, it's pretty far-fetched that it just "doesn't work". With all the crazy boost, super-boost, BB92 and other standards, chainline stuff has gotten pretty complicated and these drivetrains are real sensitive to B-gap. Not quite as foolproof to set up anymore. That assumes a perfectly aligned frame/hangar. Just because a bike is new, it doesn't mean it's aligned.
 
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#54 ·
been running 12 speed XTR for 4 years now. My findings are that the chains a tiny bit more fragile than earlier stuff, but only in the context of them getting damaged by external impacts. That is they last fine and don't break unless you crash them into something in which case they are a bit less robust than earlier thicker chains.

I have had no problems with the shifters.

I have had problems with the clutch, living in the PNW it seems that mine needs more maintenance that it should and will sometimes "stick" in high gears when there isn't much chain wrap and i will lose chain tension. you smack it with your hand or dis-able the clutch and its fine, and it means its time to yet again clean and grease it. To be fair I've been using different types of light grease but recently bought the official shimano cluch grease which will last me forever or until it dries out.

However I will say the XTR 10-51 cassette is weak - I've done the double chain and even triple chain round robin but it seems no matter what I only get a season+ out of these cassettes before 3rd gear starts to skip. I know I should just buy the cheaper, heavier XT version (if it can be found) but hey I'm a bike snob just think what that extra 110 grams will do to my performance.

to end on a positive note, I've found it easier than Eagle to keep in adjustment and the XTR shifts very very nice unless as noted the clutch is getting sticky or 3rd gear starts to skip.
I do a lot of tech climbing and the way it smoothly shifts to a harder gear is very seductive. Eagle will do it too, but in a much cruder manner.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
Jayem said:
Somewhere in here is the truth.

On the one hand, these shifters/drivetrains are clunky as hell. I shot a video of it with no chain attached, there literally is "no adjustment", that's just how they designed it, likely to prevent accidental "double-tap" shifts with the double-shift function. The lighter action of SLX seems to confirm this.

On the other hand, these drivetrains are widespread, being used by pros and amateurs alike. Shimano usually doesn't put out crap. Sometimes they miss the mark on what they estimate people want, but it's rare that their stuff isn't at least functional. Yes, they had all the 12spd shifter springs breaking on XT and XTR, but it seems like that's been fixed now. Despite not being their best day, their 11spd stuff was functional. The 12 is a much better effort and again, it's pretty far-fetched that it just "doesn't work". With all the crazy boost, super-boost, BB92 and other standards, chainline stuff has gotten pretty complicated and these drivetrains are real sensitive to B-gap. Not quite as foolproof to set up anymore. That assumes a perfectly aligned frame/hangar. Just because a bike is new, it doesn't mean it's aligned.
Click to expand...
I personally had no issue getting a brand new set up to work, and work smoothly.

It’s just the 6 month+ later time frame on their parts and those parts being already replaced, usually multiple times, that has me completely soured on Shimano now.

The only reason I haven’t swapped to Sram cassettes and chains yet is the horrible gearing jumps in the climbing gears, especially that jump to the 52t cog.

But, if Sram wasn’t about to release new cassettes with what appears to be much better gearing choices I would probably just grab the older 10-50 cassettes and move on with my life.

This late in the season though, I’ll just finish out on what’s on the bikes now and look forward to hopefully starting next season on some fresh Sram drivetrain parts.
 
#56 ·
FrankS29 said:
Well, for me at least.

I’ve been a huge Shimano fan boy for years and years. But the 12 speed stuff is pure garbage compared to older Shimano drivetrains.

I had my second, SECOND practically new XT chain snap on me last night. That’s 2 this season alone. I have also yet to get more than 500 miles on a Shimano 12 speed chain that didn’t measure as worn.

Keep in mind, these are not quick link failures, these are factory pinned links blowing up and they are blowing up under less than stressful environments.

Until I started riding Shimano 12 speed, I had never snapped a chain before. Ever.

I have Shimano 11 speed chains with nearly 2,000 miles on them that are perfectly fine.

Combine this with practically unavailable replacement parts and the ridiculously low life span of my last 2 Shimano 12 speed derailleurs, noticeably cheaper and poor actuated shifters, I’m officially over it.

Hyperglide+ is great and all, but not great enough to keep blowing through parts and doing trail side repairs.

Once SRAM officially releases the new cassettes with the flat top chains for MTB, I’m swapping fully over to Sram.
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Sorry to hear this, Frank.
But can't blame you.
FWIW I quit using Shimano chains when they came out with the break-off replacement pin.
How many years has it been? I didn't count.
Anyway for the past couple decades or so I've employed KMC or SRAM chains.
My Shimano drivetrains work just fine with other-than-Shimano chains.
Not trying to talk you out of anything, just mentioning in case you want to make the most of what's left of your drivetrain between now and whenever SRAM comes out with whatever system you mentioned they're coming out with.
=sParty
 
#58 ·
I haven't tried a SRAM chain on Shimano myself, but we are in one of those perhaps rare times when the 12 speed dimensions from Shimano and SRAM are closely matching each other. That's why the people driving Shimano gears with AXS are succeeding.
 
#60 ·
Shimano chains don’t work well with the Eagle 50t/52t gears as they are narrow-wide. Perhaps after a bit if running in, but with new parts they are crunchy AF. The Sram chainring doesn’t play together with a Shimano chain at all.

I have my ARC set up with a Shimano chain, Garbaruk cassette and Alugear oval chainring on Sram carbon cranks, and that combo works perfectly.
 
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