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Coil shocks that will work on, and places that can tune for wide varieties of terrain?

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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Dougal said:
When a shock is dialled in you don't need to change adjusters. Continually changing settings is a sign the internal tune is completely wrong for you.

How often do you feel the need to change the rebound on your car shocks?
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So you're saying one shouldn't have to touch a clicker when going from riding jump lines at a bike park one day, to basically XC the next, and flying down staircases another day? I don't believe that for a second.

Take motorcycles for instance. You make clicker and geometry changes based on terrain all the time. You can't expect a hard pack arenacross setup to work even remotely well on a high speed sand track for instance. Ideally you would have a different set of suspension for every terrain, but not everyone is on a factory race team, so we do the best we can with a custom tune and clickers.

Also, my car is the ultimate false equivalence in this discussion for several reasons. My car is just a bike hauler and grocery getter. I'm not racing my car. I'm not jumping it. I'm not trying to maximize its performance in any way except maybe when it comes to cargo storage. My position in my car is static while I'm very dynamic on the bike. And if you pay any attention to car racing, you know they change setups to suit the course they're on as well.
 
#23 ·
Ih8Hondas said:
So I'll be riding everything from the local concrete jungle, to national forest single track with occasional long-ish climbs, to air miles and plowing through rock gardens at bike parks.

I'm far from a set it and forget it guy. I ride a wide variety of stuff on my moto bike too, and I set it up differently for the type of riding I'm doing. I'm used to changing fork height, turning clickers, etc. depending on whether I'm at the track, an arena, in the woods, or out in the dez.

So what coil shocks options are there that have an adjustment range that would accommodate the different types of riding I'd be doing? Reading stuff on here and elsewhere it sounds like there are quite a few mtb shocks out there with clickers that don't do much of anything, or entire damping systems that simply don't allow for much in the way of adjustment (poppet valve systems being an obvious one).

I figure the climbing would also make a lockout almost a must-have given the frame I'm on.

And do any of you have recommendations for places to revalve things for that sort of variety?
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I’m with you. I’ll mess with the dials if something doesn’t feel right, but I generally know what I’m doing.

My enduro bike has two shocks, both tuned differently:
  • one 170mm enduro shock for dh type riding, or days i want more travel, and a standard coil for more plushness
  • one 155mm trail shock, short stroked and running a progressive spring, for a snappier feel

My short travel trail bike (130mm) and DH bike (200mm) have one shock for each, but they have pretty dedicated uses so I don’t see myself messing with them like the enduro shocks. I do play with the knobs on those, but not as much.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Even Dougal has said if you are charging through rock gardens at high speed you might need faster rebound. No, one shock can't do it all perfectly, but with a good tune you can get really close and not be making huge compromises in varied terrain.

You can theoretically keep adding circuits upon circuits, mid-valves, mid-mid-valves, but you'll start to introduce lag in the system that will work against it at a point. So while you could theoretically have a perfectly stable chassis that only reacts to impacts, to gain those last few % points and the complexity starts shooting up exponentially.

Most adjusters tend to not be very effective because they aren't actually shifting the damping curve, especially HSC, which isn't adjusting the entire stack shape or curve like it needs to be doing to be an effective adjustment, it's just preloading the stack. Your useful effective range with this is very small. Going downhill on a smoother flow-trail vs. a steep rock garden does mean some different adjustments IME. The best solution is something like a Push 11-6 where you have two separate circuits, but that's also two circuits that may not be optimal for you either, as in it relies on the tuner to really nail what you need, so one good circuit can be better than two "meh" ones.
 
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#25 · (Edited)
Jayem said:
…The best solution is something like a Push 11-6 where you have two separate circuits, but that's also two circuits that may not be optimal for you either, as in it relies on the tuner to really nail what you need, so one good circuit can be better than two "meh" ones.
Click to expand...
Thankfully, they nailed it for me. My 11-6 is set and forget. So much so that I have not felt the need to fiddle with the preset settings, even one click.

I use and enjoy both circuits every ride. And not just for climbing, and then the downs. The “climb” mode is a blast on fast bermy flow trails. I did though drop the suggested spring weight from 450 to a 425. Both springs are perfectly fine, but I prefer the 425.

It may not be the answer for other folks, and it obviously isn’t the only answer, but it’s been the answer for me. Maybe some bikes are better suited for it than others too, and maybe I lucked out on that front. I will say this though - having two separate circuits onboard has been one of the funnest component additions I have made over the years. It’s like having two distinctly different riding bikes with me, every ride.

The only downside I can think of is that I have to send it to Suspension Werx every winter for servicing. Not a big deal though.
 
#26 ·
Ih8Hondas said:
So you're saying one shouldn't have to touch a clicker when going from riding jump lines at a bike park one day, to basically XC the next, and flying down staircases another day? I don't believe that for a second.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's how I ride. I'm not a jumper but I still get enough air under my wheels. Stable and controlled works for all of them.

Of course you're talking about a range that ideally has completely different bikes. I don't see the point in trying to make a bike something it isn't for a different days riding. I pedal my 175/170mm bike to work with the same suspension settings I go chair-lift riding with.

Ih8Hondas said:
Take motorcycles for instance. You make clicker and geometry changes based on terrain all the time. You can't expect a hard pack arenacross setup to work even remotely well on a high speed sand track for instance. Ideally you would have a different set of suspension for every terrain, but not everyone is on a factory race team, so we do the best we can with a custom tune and clickers.
Click to expand...
You're not talking about motorbikes. You're talking about racing. Racers will change everything based on weather.
 
#27 ·
Dougal said:
Yep, that's how I ride. I'm not a jumper but I still get enough air under my wheels. Stable and controlled works for all of them.

Of course you're talking about a range that ideally has completely different bikes. I don't see the point in trying to make a bike something it isn't for a different days riding. I pedal my 175/170mm bike to work with the same suspension settings I go chair-lift riding with.



You're not talking about motorbikes. You're talking about racing. Racers will change everything based on weather.
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Not everyone can afford (or chooses to prioritize) multiple bikes or even suspension parts.
 
#30 ·
PhillipJ said:
Adjustable HSC exists to make one tune work for a wide range of bikes, riders and terrain. You shouldn't need to change it on a damper that's been tuned for you and your bike.
Click to expand...
But really it doesn't, all it does is make it ride harsher and like crap, because you aren't actually moving the HSC curve like you need to, you are just preloading the shims. They stay closed until a big enough bump comes along, but that initial resistance to movement, rather than a heavier stack that has more shim "spring" backing it, tends to make it harsh and not actually provide the HSC that is needed further in the travel/with more fluid flow. It's slowing it down on the front end (beginning of travel) rather than later on where it's needed more. Adjustable HSC like Fox VVC is the direction this needs to go to actually work, there are problems with their execution and range though. Still, at least their concept is trying to address this inherent problem.

I'm not arguing with you, you seem to be saying the same thing I am. The Bomber CR is a great platform for a shock.
 
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#31 ·
Dougal said:
You realise I'm riding the same bike, same suspension and same settings everywhere right?
Click to expand...
I did not reaize that, not sure how i was supposed to given your comment “I don't see the point in trying to make a bike something it isn't for a different days riding.” The point is if you can only afford/ want 1 bike, try to find parts that can maximize performance under your chosen variety of applications. I went 1 step further than OP’s interest in buying parts when I purchased a shorter stroke air shock to make my coil sprung long travel do all bike a bit more fit for a 50 mile high altitude race. was it optimal? No an xc race or even trail bike would have been a better match. But was there a point/ was it worth it given my budget and interest in spending income on bikes? IMO yes. If you are happy with 1 bike and suspension for your intended range of use that is cool, but it doesn’t mean others shouldn’t seek to maximize performance across a wider range of riding styles.
 
#32 ·
Ih8Hondas said:
I'd love a Storia, but goddamn they're expensive.

I was actually looking at a used MRP Hazzard but apparently given the shaft size and the linkage progression on my bike there's not enough flow capacity in the shock itself to handle the shaft speeds from bigger hits or square edges without getting harsh.
Click to expand...
That's quite a far-fetching assumption based on just one dimension. MRP and EXT shocks both employ 14mm shafts, y the way.
 
#33 ·
Ih8Hondas said:
Actually did that. My main hesitation with the Bomber CR is lack of HSC adjuster given the variety of riding I'll be doing.

And granted I haven't ridden one, but I'm skeptical of the claim that one can make a shock work well in bumps but also provide good pedaling platform on something like a Chilcotin.
Click to expand...
High speed adjusters aren’t the indicator of a good shock or a good tune, and neither is price.

I’m riding a 2021 Enduro, so yeah long travel bike that pedals better than most, much like your Chilcotin. The CR is a slightly updated Fox Van, it’s inexpensive, reliable and easy to tune. 260 miles on my shock so far and all I’ve done is add one click of compression. Everything from dirt road climbs at Pisgah, a steep blacktop climb in Maine, rooty chunk climbs in North Conway and my local rugged xc climbs and no need for a climb switch. Coming down I’m faster than I was before my injuries last year and even my riding buddies have noticed.

Another bonus with the CR, even after it’s been tuned by Craig, anyone can service it. No need to send it to him, unlike options from EXT, Ohlins etc.
 
#34 ·
yzedf said:
High speed adjusters aren’t the indicator of a good shock or a good tune, and neither is price.

I’m riding a 2021 Enduro, so yeah long travel bike that pedals better than most, much like your Chilcotin. The CR is a slightly updated Fox Van, it’s inexpensive, reliable and easy to tune. 260 miles on my shock so far and all I’ve done is add one click of compression. Everything from dirt road climbs at Pisgah, a steep blacktop climb in Maine, rooty chunk climbs in North Conway and my local rugged xc climbs and no need for a climb switch. Coming down I’m faster than I was before my injuries last year and even my riding buddies have noticed.

Another bonus with the CR, even after it’s been tuned by Craig, anyone can service it. No need to send it to him, unlike options from EXT, Ohlins etc.
Click to expand...
I loved the old Rocco from early 2000s for the same reason.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
milehi said:
With a coil, it's set up and forget. Once I find my sweet spot I don't touch the dials. A tune for you and your riding style will ease frustration of finding that sweet spot.
Click to expand...
Thing is, I don't have one style of riding. I do a variety of things that require different things from my suspension. Again, ideally I would have multiple forks and shocks with a specific setup for every type of riding to swap out, but I'm not Elon Musk, so I can't afford that.

Jayem said:
Even Dougal has said if you are charging through rock gardens at high speed you might need faster rebound. No, one shock can't do it all perfectly, but with a good tune you can get really close and not be making huge compromises in varied terrain.

You can theoretically keep adding circuits upon circuits, mid-valves, mid-mid-valves, but you'll start to introduce lag in the system that will work against it at a point. So while you could theoretically have a perfectly stable chassis that only reacts to impacts, to gain those last few % points and the complexity starts shooting up exponentially.

Most adjusters tend to not be very effective because they aren't actually shifting the damping curve, especially HSC, which isn't adjusting the entire stack shape or curve like it needs to be doing to be an effective adjustment, it's just preloading the stack. Your useful effective range with this is very small. Going downhill on a smoother flow-trail vs. a steep rock garden does mean some different adjustments IME. The best solution is something like a Push 11-6 where you have two separate circuits, but that's also two circuits that may not be optimal for you either, as in it relies on the tuner to really nail what you need, so one good circuit can be better than two "meh" ones.
Click to expand...
Your first paragraph is really what I'm looking for. A good all around baseline tune that I can make a few changes to depending on what I'm riding. Something flexible.

As far as high speed compression, it's not like I make huge changes to it. I'll close it up a bit if it's going to be taking big hits, and open it up for more compliance in chop and to let the thing work smoother. It's not like I'm going to extremes with the clickers. I just go a few clicks either direction to get things to work.

I've been drooling over Storias and 11/6s. Debating whether to get a cheaper shock to revalve now, or just deal with this suntour thing until the bank account recovers enough to buy a real high end shock that will come tuned for my purposes out of the box.

Jayem said:
But really it doesn't, all it does is make it ride harsher and like crap, because you aren't actually moving the HSC curve like you need to, you are just preloading the shims. They stay closed until a big enough bump comes along, but that initial resistance to movement, rather than a heavier stack that has more shim "spring" backing it, tends to make it harsh and not actually provide the HSC that is needed further in the travel/with more fluid flow. It's slowing it down on the front end (beginning of travel) rather than later on where it's needed more. Adjustable HSC like Fox VVC is the direction this needs to go to actually work, there are problems with their execution and range though. Still, at least their concept is trying to address this inherent problem.

I'm not arguing with you, you seem to be saying the same thing I am. The Bomber CR is a great platform for a shock.
Click to expand...
Have you seen Kreft Moto's revalve control system? Sounds like what Fox might be trying to go for. I've always been sort of skeptical of how effective it might be, but a lot of people rave about it. Just wonder how much of that is placebo. They have agraph showing different damping curves but who knows if it's just marketing mumbo jumbo or actual data.

www.kreftmoto.com

XACT / AER 48 - ReValve Control - Kreft Moto — Kreft Moto

Kreft Moto ReValve Control allows riders to easily adjust damping characteristics through the entire stroke of the fork utilizing an external adjuster.
www.kreftmoto.com www.kreftmoto.com
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
yzedf said:
High speed adjusters aren’t the indicator of a good shock or a good tune, and neither is price.

I’m riding a 2021 Enduro, so yeah long travel bike that pedals better than most, much like your Chilcotin. The CR is a slightly updated Fox Van, it’s inexpensive, reliable and easy to tune. 260 miles on my shock so far and all I’ve done is add one click of compression. Everything from dirt road climbs at Pisgah, a steep blacktop climb in Maine, rooty chunk climbs in North Conway and my local rugged xc climbs and no need for a climb switch. Coming down I’m faster than I was before my injuries last year and even my riding buddies have noticed.

Another bonus with the CR, even after it’s been tuned by Craig, anyone can service it. No need to send it to him, unlike options from EXT, Ohlins etc.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying those things are indicators. The MRP Hazzard is just an old Elka that might have a couple of tiny changes, but it's priced like a mid-high tier modern shock.

I don't know how well the Chilcotin will do without a climb switch honestly. The one thing the current shock has going for it is that switch. I have a steep driveway and it made a massive difference pedalling up that. I'll get the thing out in trails tomorrow and see how it does without the lever in actual terrain.

As long as I can source parts, I service all of my own stuff. The only thing I take to a shop when it comes to my mx bike is the shock, and that's only because I don't have a source of compressed N at my place. Not sure if EXT and Öhlins just don't sell service parts or what, but if they don't, that's a good way to not get my business. Thanks for that heads up as I was not aware that that could potentially be a concern. If I do end up going with a fancier shock I'll definitely have to keep that in mind.
 
#37 ·
I know that this was semi-dismissed earlier, but I'm a large fan of the cane creek shocks, especially the full sized coil. The new kitsuma looks even better, but I've not tried it.

The ability to precisely set the lsc/lsr/hsc/hsr, and have a climb switch that allows a second set of lsc/Lsr (also fully tunable) is really useful.

It provides a ton of support, but tracks the ground smoothly and quickly.

I've run quite a few shocks on my bikes, and demoed dozens more, but I always go back to CC. I spent ages custom tuning a fox van before realising (apart from the rebound) cc destroyed it in every way.

The biggest disappointment was with EXT. I spent a day with CP and I ended up with a shock that spiked on every root and sagged between.
With more than a day I'd expect it to get better, but it was poor. Not RS monarch bad, but not impressed.

Every shock has it's pros and cons.
If you can take the cons this is worth it.

It's great for a heavy rider riding hard, allegedly not great for lighter riders.

There is no hydraulic top out, unless you are running a lot of rebound damping it does not like much preload. Sprindex is a good option as more support without preload.

It's a poppet shock, the damping curve will be digressive. My bike is designed around the Ext with a progressive damping curve, I prefer the cc.

The trade off is an extremely low friction shock that you can set to how you want in seconds.

If it's dry I dial hsc in 1/4 of a turn and I'm skimming the bumps and flying. In the wet I dial it back and it hugs the ground with all the extra grip.

I've fitted a climb switch to my bars which scales lsc up to fully closed and ramps up Lsr to a smaller degree.

It's easy to adapt to how you feel on the day.
 
#38 ·
CaveGiant said:
The biggest disappointment was with EXT. I spent a day with CP and I ended up with a shock that spiked on every root and sagged between.
With more than a day I'd expect it to get better, but it was poor.
Click to expand...
This is so strange that those of us that had negative experiences seem to have a fairly consistent negative experience, as in the same description/action/issue.
 
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#39 ·
CaveGiant said:
I know that this was semi-dismissed earlier, but I'm a large fan of the cane creek shocks, especially the full sized coil. The new kitsuma looks even better, but I've not tried it.

The ability to precisely set the lsc/lsr/hsc/hsr, and have a climb switch that allows a second set of lsc/Lsr (also fully tunable) is really useful.
Click to expand...
As far as I've understood, the adjustments aren't as independent or do exactly what manufacturers claim, at least with some older twin-tube shocks. For example, the rebound adjustments have some overlap so that more than one combination of adjustment can produce (nearly) identical performance. Besides this, the rebound damping is often times digressive.

Steve from Vorsprung has an excellent video of the subject.
 
#40 ·
Jukka4130 said:
As far as I've understood, the adjustments aren't as independent or do exactly what manufacturers claim, at least with some older twin-tube shocks. For example, the rebound adjustments have some overlap so that more than one combination of adjustment can produce (nearly) identical performance. Besides this, the rebound damping is often times digressive.

Steve from Vorsprung has an excellent video of the subject.
Click to expand...
I don't think a shock exists that does exactly what the manufacturers claim! 😂

Mine is one of the oldest ccdbs going. Cane creek can't tell me how old it is because it predates their electronic records. To be fair mine is part original ccdb with the ohlins stamp, part ccdb air and part air inline.

It certainly works for me.


I do want another day on the Ext. There seems to be such a love hate relationship with that shock I have to be missing something.
Spending a day with the designer dialling the shock should have given better results though. Maybe I just don't know how to make progressive damping work.
Doesn't that mean soft off the top, then first up with high acceleration events?
E.g. Soft when you pedal then spikes over roots?

On my CC it's as supportive as you want, then you can set it to completely erase the root, or my current preference is feel it, then move.

What is the Ext supposed to be good at. It looks amazing on paper, but just don't get it!
 
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