Berm rollers in pump track: sizing and shape

291748 · Jun 7, 2022

cyanidecowboy said:
This looks amazing! What an awesome spot. I really like the amplitude you have on some of the features, looks super fun. That really wide roller section could be fun for doing side by side pumping races also...

Thanks man.
I got lucky with the spot - I found it building MTB trails 12-15 years ago and always thought it would be perfect for a track. Just really cool pre-existing terrain.
As fate would have it, the town bought a beach and it came with 100 acres that just so happened to include this area, and when they asked me if I could build something 'for the kids'...well...sure I can!

If I had had to stack up dirt from flat, there's no way I'd have stuff anywhere near as big.
As it is I've gone through well over 250 yards of dirt. I tested clay/sand mixes and others and found that I personally like screened garden loam to work with. Luckily I don't have to foot the bill LOL.

Next big berm/wall/quarter; probably get after it seriously in fall.

291748 · Jun 7, 2022

cyanidecowboy said:
The rollers are mostly 1:8 to 1:10 in height, but honestly I smashed them down so much with the tamper that some might be shorter now. I'm still trying to get a feel for what is the right height for some of them, a few feel to big, some feel too small, and some feel too tight together, but I've only done a dozen laps on the section of track I have, so I'll leave it for now until I have a clear idea on how to improve it.

And yea, I'm being pretty ridiculously detailed in the planning and construction, all my neighbors and friends have teased me about it. I'm trying to fit a 200' loop into a pretty tight space, but also I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm prone to creating detailed plans
Here is the plan:
View attachment 1986753
And the roller shapes:
View attachment 1986754

I can't help myself...

Ha. I'm a CAD jockey myself. I feel ya.

One thing to accept is that you'll likely build/rebuild everything at least once (and more likely 2 or 3 times) until you get it feeling like you want.
A general plan is super useful in a tight spot like where you're building, but it will all come down to just riding, re-riding, then riding some more and adjusting along the way.
The more tires you get on it, but better it'll ride too, particularly smooth BMX or DJ tires.
Knobbies tend to beat things up and loosen the surface; if my track wasn't 'public', I would never let anyone ride MTB tires on it.

des1401 · Jun 7, 2022

cyanidecowboy said:
Haha, thanks, he loves biking and I really want to encourage him to build skill with it. You read my mind on the pool, It gets too cold here to be worth having an in-ground pool, but I'm planning on putting a little 4'x8' above ground pool in the middle of the track during the summer.

I had to tear out a big concrete pad to build the track, so I had about 40-50 tons of concrete hauled out, and then 65 tons (5 tandem loads) of fill dirt hauled in just to fix the grading and get the backyard more level for building the track.
View attachment 1986751
Concrete out
View attachment 1986752
Dirt in

Once that dirt was spread all around, I got in 15 tons of ammended topsoil to put around the edges and to help with resodding the small part of the yard that wasn't going to be pump track.

Then finally I got in 45 tons of BMX mix from a local vendor that specializes in athletic ground materials, mostly golf stuff. Its really nice blend of 60% clay and 40% sand that packs super tight and strong.

The rollers are mostly 1:8 to 1:10 in height, but honestly I smashed them down so much with the tamper that some might be shorter now. I'm still trying to get a feel for what is the right height for some of them, a few feel to big, some feel too small, and some feel too tight together, but I've only done a dozen laps on the section of track I have, so I'll leave it for now until I have a clear idea on how to improve it.

And yea, I'm being pretty ridiculously detailed in the planning and construction, all my neighbors and friends have teased me about it. I'm trying to fit a 200' loop into a pretty tight space, but also I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm prone to creating detailed plans
Here is the plan:
View attachment 1986753
And the roller shapes:
View attachment 1986754

I can't help myself...

Wow, that is really an impressive commitment. Great planning and design, I like that layout. Obvious transfer lines there will really add some variety. Also counter-turns.

I think it is super-cool to have a PT right outside your door. Mine is 300ft from the house, which is pretty good, but that's a different level. Awesome!

I'm feeling like we might have a quorum for a pump-trackers-anonymous meeting here.

des1401 · Jun 7, 2022

slapheadmofo said:
Thanks homey. I've had a few years to work on it.
I try to build so everything can be ridden in almost any direction. It can get a little confusing out there sometimes but it's nice to have lots of options, particularly when you're mixing in 3 y/o kids on striders with rippers on everything from big FS to BMX bikes. Lots and lots of 'hidden' lines to find. Sometimes people come up with stuff I never even thought of, which is cool.

I'll have to pace it off; figuring 60' x 150' or so. Ish.

Come a long way since bitd.

View attachment 1986747 View attachment 1986748

This pic is taken from standing right where that berm entrance I'm working on now is.

View attachment 1986749

From humble beginnings...it looks like the site was dug out a while back, giving you those nice-obvious berms. You've done a great job with it.

291748 · Jun 7, 2022

des1401 said:
From humble beginnings...it looks like the site was dug out a while back, giving you those nice-obvious berms. You've done a great job with it.

Thank you.

There's a nearby site where a bunch of contaminated soil from chemical dumping back in the 70s had to be removed and shipped away.
They used this spot to get backfill material for that area, then just sat abandoned for a good long while, collecting garbage mainly.
It's pretty well used now; had about 25 riders through on Sunday, most stayed for at least a couple hours. It's turned into a nice little social spot for local riders, specially with the MTB trails passing right by.

cyanidecowboy · Jun 22, 2022

Wanted to post an update on my build and see how you guys were going. I have all the track in and packed, still need to pack the sides of the features, but I'm waiting on that because my wife has some landscaping ambitions and I don't want to have to just till it up again. The big project has been the final 180 to close in the loop. I live in a suburb without an HOA, but the scope of my project is pushing the limits on what I can do without permits, so I am trying to keep it on the DL. To that end, I needed to build a retaining wall that looks like a fence any wont cause and issues with the neighbors.

Here is the fence going up, solid planks up to 4ft on the inside, half planks on the outside to match the rest of the fence

Cement board on the inside of the fence to protect the wood from moisture

Board up and taped, smashed as much of the retaining wall on the left as I could with a sledge, but couldn't get the corner, so I'll need to rent an impact hammer.

Built dead-men out of PTL to stabilize the posts and prevent push over or blow out.

Dry stacked concrete scrap left over from the section of driveway I took out. Spaced about 2" away from the fence, with 3/4" rock in the gap to provide drainage

Ran out of concrete block and started filling with dirt mixed with rocks. We are pulling a bunch of rocks out of our landscaping and I'm dumping them in the core of this berm.

I borrowed a buddies shovel in the beginning of the project and broke the head off. Buried in the berm with his blessings. RIP

The fence feels and looks super solid, and blends in well with the rest of the fencing, hopefully nobody complains, but so far all the neighbors have been stoked.

That's where I'm at now, next weekend will be stacking dirt, starting by collecting all the crappy dirt from around the yard, and finally using the nice BMX dirt pile that is tarped. Probably won't have it done next weekend, but I'm hoping.
Cheers & Happy Digging,
Chris

des1401 · Jun 23, 2022

cyanidecowboy said:
Wanted to post an update on my build and see how you guys were going. I have all the track in and packed, still need to pack the sides of the features, but I'm waiting on that because my wife has some landscaping ambitions and I don't want to have to just till it up again. The big project has been the final 180 to close in the loop. I live in a suburb without an HOA, but the scope of my project is pushing the limits on what I can do without permits, so I am trying to keep it on the DL. To that end, I needed to build a retaining wall that looks like a fence any wont cause and issues with the neighbors.
...

Built dead-men out of PTL to stabilize the posts and prevent push over or blow out.
View attachment 1988623
Dry stacked concrete scrap left over from the section of driveway I took out. Spaced about 2" away from the fence, with 3/4" rock in the gap to provide drainage

Yeah, you really need the support group. This is some serious stuff you are doing, I love it! It looks great, fantastic work. I feel a bit lame, I'm just digging in the dirt - no structural engineering for me. I've no doubt that it will be fantastic when you complete it. Very cool.

On my end, before I broke ground back in March, I was hoping to have this finished by Father's Day which has just passed. I now come to realize that the term "finished" does not apply to PT building. I've got my extension built and pretty dialed in most places, so it is really fun to ride:

The problem is that as I ride it, my skills keep getting better, so I have to go back dial it some more and start looking for more features to work in. Build, ride, dial. Build, ride, dial. I'm stuck in a loop (literally and figuratively).
It's really cool when you can consistently hit things at a faster and faster rate. That tight 180 at the end of these runs is super fun. I've got the proper pumping down and I can really fly into and out of it. Such great positive feedback as my skills improve.

I really like having the lines into/out of the berm close, there are lots of options for transfers and alternate lines. Also starting to put in things which I have yet to know how to properly ride, which means they will probably undergo revisions as we learn and get better (small double, maybe too short?):

Next stage is to rework the original part, using lessons learned and add some more killer berms. Then I'm going to start to incorporate the natural obstacles which I can't move (like the boulder jump/rollover in the foreground).

My daughter currently holds the primary loop record, but I'm king of the tight 180 for the moment.

cyanidecowboy said:
Ran out of concrete block and started filling with dirt mixed with rocks. We are pulling a bunch of rocks out of our landscaping and I'm dumping them in the core of this berm.

I got a bunch of left over rocks if you need 'em. Feel free to stop by, we'll fill up your trunk.

des1401 · Jul 20, 2022

cyanidecowboy said:
Wanted to post an update on my build and see how you guys were going. I have all the track in and packed, still need to pack the sides of the features, but I'm waiting on that because my wife has some landscaping ambitions and I don't want to have to just till it up again. The big project has been the final 180 to close in the loop. I live in a suburb without an HOA, but the scope of my project is pushing the limits on what I can do without permits, so I am trying to keep it on the DL. ...

Would love to see another update on this....

Not a whole lot of motion on mine, been tuning and working on drainage. Not sure I'm really happy with it overall - I'm thinking about doing some recon missions to see how other tracks are put together. I have a lot of ideas, but I've also needed to focus on other stuff (imagine that!). Not to mention my knee is keeping me down at the moment, so I can't even fool around on it.

Let's see some drone footage!

vtskibum · Aug 10, 2022

Had a local trail builder tackle this for me in the spring. Has been great as my daughter is also super into it. Have started adding a few extra lines between and going to play with different roller spacing. The majority are 1:1 or 3:2, but for new ones might pack them tighter for easier doubling them. Have some decent crossovers so you can switch direction or ride a figure 8.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

des1401 · Aug 11, 2022

vtskibum said:
Had a local trail builder tackle this for me in the spring. Has been great as my daughter is also super into it. Have started adding a few extra lines between and going to play with different roller spacing. The majority are 1:1 or 3:2, but for new ones might pack them tighter for easier doubling them. Have some decent crossovers so you can switch direction or ride a figure 8.

That looks awesome. Very cool that your daughter is into it also.

I agree that cross-overs and the ability to change directions is key. The other thing which I find important is having turns in both directions, esp like your berm-left followed by berm-right.

I've been working on some lines which have a much longer spacing, at the 10:1 ratio. Also some more BMXey lumps, although at the moment everything it is a huge mess while I reconfigure.

Thanks for sharing, looks excellent.

cmc4130 · Aug 18, 2022

I wrote up a long post about berm styles over here:
My own private jump park? Yes, please. - BMXmuseum.com Forums

One of the berms I'm most proud of that I did a while back was this up-swoosh to "water fall" design. Basically the exit roller is integrated into the berm itself:

vtskibum · Aug 19, 2022

That looks incredible and would love to ride that kind. Have seen videos of Phil Kmetz old one he built and Lee McCormicks both have a ton of elevation change. Mine has a little bit which is great for ripping multiple laps as can cheat w gravity for 1/2 of each lap.

Also some testing for fall last night on mine

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

des1401 · Aug 19, 2022

cmc4130 said:
I wrote up a long post about berm styles over here:
My own private jump park? Yes, please. - BMXmuseum.com Forums

One of the berms I'm most proud of that I did a while back was this up-swoosh to "water fall" design. Basically the exit roller is integrated into the berm itself:

Been through that thread a few times...great info there although somewhat overwhelming. I really like that look of this swooshy one, I might try to modify my 110 deg berm to do something like this - looks cool, and might help me get out of the hole which the berm drops through. Similar are those ribbon type berms which look fun, but I suspect are a bit more work.

vtskibum said:
That looks incredible and would love to ride that kind. Have seen videos of Phil Kmetz old one he built and Lee McCormicks both have a ton of elevation change. Mine has a little bit which is great for ripping multiple laps as can cheat w gravity for 1/2 of each lap.

Also some testing for fall last night on mine

Looks nice. What is the radius of your berms?

I've been working to eliminate the elevation changes...esp when coming out of a berm. Fun when gravity is on your side, but sometimes too much work to regain it once it is lost.

cmc4130 · Aug 19, 2022

I think where you have the option of a lot of space, some of the small pump track designs, like in the original Lee Likes Bikes Welcome to Pump Track Nation book are a little too small. If you want a track that's actually jumpable, you need some long straights to get some momentum going. Having too many turns--especially 180 berms--can make it hard to keep momentum. This one that I built is more like a big rectangle, with another inner rectangle inside it.

des1401 · Aug 19, 2022

cmc4130 said:
I think where you have the option of a lot of space, some of the small pump track designs, like in the original Lee Likes Bikes Welcome to Pump Track Nation book are a little too small. If you want a track that's actually jumpable, you need some long straights to get some momentum going. Having too many turns--especially 180 berms--can make it hard to keep momentum. This one that I built is more like a big rectangle, with another inner rectangle inside it.

That's what I want, with chickens too!

But - is this really a "pump track", or is it "bmx trails"? Or is there a difference?

I'd like to expand out to have similar trail, which loops back to my current space (which is becoming maybe more of a pump-park). Next phase. I need to finish up what I've got first.

Looks like an awesome site.

vtskibum · Aug 19, 2022

des1401 said:
Been through that thread a few times...great info there although somewhat overwhelming. I really like that look of this swooshy one, I might try to modify my 110 deg berm to do something like this - looks cool, and might help me get out of the hole which the berm drops through. Similar are those ribbon type berms which look fun, but I suspect are a bit more work.

Looks nice. What is the radius of your berms?

I've been working to eliminate the elevation changes...esp when coming out of a berm. Fun when gravity is on your side, but sometimes too much work to regain it once it is lost.

~12' have a wide skill variety and age of people using.

cmc4130 · Sep 7, 2022

des1401 said:
That's what I want, with chickens too!

But - is this really a "pump track", or is it "bmx trails"? Or is there a difference?

I'd like to expand out to have similar trail, which loops back to my current space (which is becoming maybe more of a pump-park). Next phase. I need to finish up what I've got first.

Looks like an awesome site.

I consider it to be a BMX and MTB-DJ style pump track, or pump/jump track if you want to blend terms. The BMX world always had the two things blended (look at BMX race tracks, or indoor BMX wood ramp parks, like Ray's, or look at concrete skateparks). It was the MTB world that sorta broke them into different concepts. Like the Jay Hoots designs of the 2000's would have jumps-only over there and rollers-only pump track over here. When Lee McCormack first published Welcome to Pump Track Nation, it was to show what you could do in the confines of a backyard for training purposes, focusing on pumping--so it was all rollers. In retrospect, I think Lee McCormack should have said, hey cities, if you're building a big facility in a park, it needs to have pump and jump, not just pump. People rapidly got bored with rollers-only pump tracks and were trying to figure out lines to get some air. Some of the $500K Velosolutions tracks have no jumps for beginners or intermediate riders to jump--only experts can find lines to get air. But, a few of the newer Velosolutions tracks, they are adding in side loops with actual tabletop jumps (what I was doing 14 years ago). Similarly, Clark Kent Contractors from the UK has always designed their pump tracks with a more mini-BMX-race track feel, like actual camel-back/rollable-doubles and roller-tables and such, rather than just uniform rollers only. C&K Contractors - Pump Track Design & Build Specialists C&K Contractors - Werrington Pump Track , Staffordshire

wbartram · Sep 27, 2022

Love the ideas - check out this pump track build in Arosa Switzerland @1800m Arosa Pump Track

Good Luck William

Berm rollers in pump track: sizing and shape

291748

291748

des1401

des1401

291748

cyanidecowboy

des1401

des1401

vtskibum

des1401

cmc4130

vtskibum

des1401

cmc4130

des1401

vtskibum

cmc4130

wbartram

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities