Could use some help locating frame design.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 21, 2021

Hello.

I don't have much experience. What I do have is a lot of fun flying through the woods over rocks and roots. I'm 6'1", 350lbs, had a broken back early in life. I don't jump, rarely drop, and usually ride on single-track or low-level stuff. However, I've found that it's a great work-out, drenched in sweat before I know it and don't even notice it's work because it's that much fun.

Anyway, I've been researching a bike upgrade for several months. For the past 9 mos, I've been riding a hybrid Giant Sedona (example below, same bike, not mine). It's held up pretty well considering. However, it lacks the geometry and durability I'd like and I'm ready for something better.

I'm open to buying, but I'd rather build something. I have some mechanical aptitude and, if I make a mistake, I'll learn from it. The primary issue I'm running into is that the bikes I've been able to find and sit on, ie. Trek X-Caliber, Roscoe, Niner Sir 9 have me too forward compared to the hybrid. I'm not really fit enough to take advantage of a dropper. I spend far more time sitting than standing. If I stand while pedaling, I'll shear teeth. So, I pedal sitting and only stand for obstacles. I also don't really do sustained downhills, there aren't many hills around (Michigan), so I don't really need the clearance of a dropper anyway, and the long stem of a dropper would probably buckle under my weight the first time I sat on it.

I'm hoping someone with experience may know of a product or have a recommendation for how I could accomplish what I want in a bike geometry. In the crude diagram below is my current bike with the changes I would like to have in yellow on the right. I'd just like to extend the top tube so that the bars are still where they are now, slightly elevated to the seat as in a typical hybrid, but with the head tube moved underneath them to eliminate the long stem, which I don't like, and to lengthen the wheel base for 29s and more stability. I'd also like a smaller head tube angle for a little more slack; the Giant is 69°. That's it for geometry. If anyone knows of a complete bike, or preferably, a frame that achieves something similar to the below, I'd appreciate the tip. I'd like to build a bike around it. Preferably steel, but I'd consider aluminum also. The Giant is Al and has no signs of fatigue. I've looked at the Growler, Honzo, Sir 9. All of them I think will have me forward more than I'd like. I'd like to stay more upright. Probably what I'm really looking for is a hybrid trail bike with 29s, not that it exists. Other than geometry, I'd just like to beef up all components so I can get a little more aggressive and feel confident in the bike. Ie. Pike/34Factory fork, GX/SLX groupset, 4-piston brakes, tubeless.

So, anyone know of a frame that can accomplish the sort of geometry shown below, right?

Thanks.

masonmoa · Mar 21, 2021

I have no clue about this, but maybe post in the DIY/MYOG forum. This sounds like a fun project, and although I can and enjoy mig welding, I know for a fact that I do not have the attention to detail for building a bike frame nor know how to tig weld aluminum. Not an issue with steel I suppose. But from what little I do know, you'll need to build a jig.

brawlo · Mar 21, 2021

I also started back into riding many years ago on a Giant Sedona. The big thing to consider with this process is just how different its geo is from a bike that is more discipline specific. I went to road and track riding first before getting back into mountain bike riding. Once getting into road riding and going back to the Sedona on occasion to go for rides with my kids I found the riding position horrid. Going to an XC Scott Scale MTB after the Sedona had a similar feel.

In saying all of that, I think you need to be looking at XC bikes. You're looking at trail bikes which will lengthen out your reach. However also consider how these bikes shift you forward in the bike to be more centred between the wheels. The benefit to the handling is phenomenal. Stick to models that have up to 74° seat tubes. Any steeper and it will definitely feel weird. I ride a Pole Taival for mostly XC duties and the seat position (75.5° STA) is fine for traversing flatlands. I would say that seeing as you've been able to sit on some of those bikes, you should try and get a ride on them too. They will feel very different to the Sedona, but the handling benefits on trails will be off the charts in comparison.

I wouldn't geek out too hard on geo just yet. You're going from one type of geo to another, and they have very different purposes. Like comparing apples with oranges. Either try to ride some models or just take a dive into something that fits reasonably well but is properly off road focused and then work out if that suits and where you might want to go from there

ChefLeo · Mar 22, 2021

Going from a Hybrid to a Trail bike the geo changes as will your body position but they design and engineer them that way for a reason. There isn't really any reason you need a trail bike for mellow single track. I have a really fun single track behind where I live that is more fun under biking with a cross or gravel bike than my FS bike.

Check out a Surly karate monkey or Krampus, I think they fit what you're looking for really well. Both have a stack height just over 30mm less than the sedona but you can run a riser bar to adjust for this. Reach can also but brought back by reducing your stem length.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 22, 2021

masonmoa said:
I have no clue about this, but maybe post in the DIY/MYOG forum. This sounds like a fun project, and although I can and enjoy mig welding, I know for a fact that I do not have the attention to detail for building a bike frame nor know how to tig weld aluminum. Not an issue with steel I suppose. But from what little I do know, you'll need to build a jig.

Thanks for the reply. I have a pretty extensive welding background myself and could TIG a steel or aluminum frame with ease. In an ideal world, sure, I would just make my own frame. That would be a fun project. And yes, it would require a jig. Unfortunately, I don't have the equipment or access to a shop; I gave up working for a living to become an engineer lol.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 22, 2021

brawlo said:
I also started back into riding many years ago on a Giant Sedona. The big thing to consider with this process is just how different its geo is from a bike that is more discipline specific. I went to road and track riding first before getting back into mountain bike riding. Once getting into road riding and going back to the Sedona on occasion to go for rides with my kids I found the riding position horrid. Going to an XC Scott Scale MTB after the Sedona had a similar feel.

In saying all of that, I think you need to be looking at XC bikes. You're looking at trail bikes which will lengthen out your reach. However also consider how these bikes shift you forward in the bike to be more centred between the wheels. The benefit to the handling is phenomenal. Stick to models that have up to 74° seat tubes. Any steeper and it will definitely feel weird. I ride a Pole Taival for mostly XC duties and the seat position (75.5° STA) is fine for traversing flatlands. I would say that seeing as you've been able to sit on some of those bikes, you should try and get a ride on them too. They will feel very different to the Sedona, but the handling benefits on trails will be off the charts in comparison.

I wouldn't geek out too hard on geo just yet. You're going from one type of geo to another, and they have very different purposes. Like comparing apples with oranges. Either try to ride some models or just take a dive into something that fits reasonably well but is properly off road focused and then work out if that suits and where you might want to go from there

Thanks for the 2 cents. I have read about, but haven't much considered XC bikes, mainly because they're meant for racing and, therefore, light-the opposite of what I need. Another main difference from a trail bike is that the head tube angle is just a little larger for XC. Maybe I'll take another look at the geo though, and XC bikes in general. But it sounds like when you went from the Sedona to the XC, while it felt off at first, at some point you began to prefer it? Thanks.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 22, 2021

ChefLeo said:
Going from a Hybrid to a Trail bike the geo changes as will your body position but they design and engineer them that way for a reason. There isn't really any reason you need a trail bike for mellow single track. I have a really fun single track behind where I live that is more fun under biking with a cross or gravel bike than my FS bike.

Check out a Surly karate monkey or Krampus, I think they fit what you're looking for really well. Both have a stack height just over 30mm less than the sedona but you can run a riser bar to adjust for this. Reach can also but brought back by reducing your stem length.

Thanks. I have looked into the Karate Monkey online. One thing that bothers me a bit are the slotted dropouts. I understand they must work since people ride them, but at 350lbs, I'd feel a whole lot better with a solid thru axle. Similar issue with the Honzo; it isn't slotted but has a separate bolt-on to hold the hub. So far, the Niner is the only non-boutique maker of a steel bike with solid thru axle, but their **** is ridiculous expensive. I have no problem with small makers, except $$$. The Sir 9 frame only is ~1200. Anyway, thanks for the input. I'll keep it in mind.

ChefLeo · Mar 22, 2021

TheRoadNotTaken said:
Thanks. I have looked into the Karate Monkey online. One thing that bothers me a bit are the slotted dropouts. I understand they must work since people ride them, but at 350lbs, I'd feel a whole lot better with a solid thru axle. Similar issue with the Honzo; it isn't slotted but has a separate bolt-on to hold the hub. So far, the Niner is the only non-boutique maker of a steel bike with solid thru axle, but their **** is ridiculous expensive. I have no problem with small makers, except $$$. The Sir 9 frame only is ~1200. Anyway, thanks for the input. I'll keep it in mind.

I have no trouble on my Wednesday with the horizontal dropouts. I'm not at your weight but I use to be and I would have felt good about a surly. They design them to be strong, not dainty. For your style of riding your not punishing the bike by any means.

*OneSpeed* · Mar 22, 2021

ChefLeo said:
Going from a Hybrid to a Trail bike the geo changes as will your body position but they design and engineer them that way for a reason. There isn't really any reason you need a trail bike for mellow single track. I have a really fun single track behind where I live that is more fun under biking with a cross or gravel bike than my FS bike.

Check out a Surly karate monkey or Krampus, I think they fit what you're looking for really well. Both have a stack height just over 30mm less than the sedona but you can run a riser bar to adjust for this. Reach can also but brought back by reducing your stem length.

^ Spot on! I'd recommend a Krampus or KM with riser bars.

OP, this will give you MTB geometry with the longer Reach you're looking for. Adding riser handlebars will give you the Stack height you're looking for.

The horizontal dropouts are not a liability or cause for concern. These frames use a bolt-on thru axle. I would recommend a Surly Snugnut on the drive side, otherwise it's a solid system.

Below is how I currently have my Krampus setup. I recently removed the suspension fork in favor of the rigid fork but you can do this setup either way.

ChefLeo · Mar 22, 2021

*OneSpeed* said:
^ Spot on! I'd recommend a Krampus or KM with riser bars.

OP, this will give you MTB geometry with the longer Reach you're looking for. Adding riser handlebars will give you the Stack height you're looking for.

The horizontal dropouts are not a liability or cause for concern. These frames use a bolt-on thru axle. I would recommend a Surly Snugnut on the drive side, otherwise it's a solid system.

Below is how I currently have my Krampus setup. I recently removed the suspension fork in favor of the rigid fork but you can do this setup either way.

View attachment 1922455

Love seeing how people build their Surlys in different ways!

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 23, 2021

This from another forum -

"
Swapped wheels between my road and tri bikes last night. Didn't think much about it.

About ten miles into my ride today on the tri bike I had to hit the brakes to avoid a car. All of a sudden I hear a loud clunk and my back end starts to fishtail. Luckily I was in a place where I could immediately pull over and figure out what the hell was going on. I hop off, look at my rear wheel, and notice that the wheel had come out of the dropouts. The cassette was still connected to the chain, but the skewer was about two inches behind the dropouts and the brake arm was resting one the tire, holding the frame up and keeping the derailure from smacking into the pavement.

Obviously, I must not have tightened the quick release as much as I should have last night. It scared the crap out of me. Needless to say, the QR is now about as tight as I can get it. But I spent the rest of the ride nervous that I was going to 'ride out' of the dropouts again.

So, just as a public service announcement, make sure your QRs are tight! Bikes handle better when the frame is firmly connected to the wheels.
"
I hear what you're saying. I do. For me, I'm going with a through axle. While I don't jump anything now, I'd like to begin taking incrementally larger drops to build confidence.

Thanks. All of your replies have helped and I have a new line of thinking now about alternative ways to achieve the geo I'm looking for. I may look for a hybrid frame for 29s and build it up with heavy-duty components. Or, look for a trail frame with more upright or less aggressive geo and use risers or an angled stem, or both. Or I may just buy a pre-built and see if I can get used to it, and upgrade as I destroy things,

Cheers.

ChefLeo · Mar 23, 2021

Sounds like he did not do a good job putting on his quick release skewer. The krampus or karate monkey would be a thru axle. One it’s properly torqued it’s not going anywhere

bingemtbr · Mar 23, 2021

My best recommendation is to call Ventana Mountain Bikes (near Sacramento, CA) and speak to Sherwood or Teresa. Ventana offers stock, semi-custom, and full custom frames. All made in house in their shop in Sac. This may be the most co$tly option. Regardless, I'd recommend at least having a conversation to explore options and gain insight. Sherwood and Teresa are super good people.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 23, 2021

ChefLeo said:
Sounds like he did not do a good job putting on his quick release skewer. The krampus or karate monkey would be a thru axle. One it's properly torqued it's not going anywhere

I have to admit, I thought through axles were synonymous with an enclosed..drop out? I'm guess it wouldn't be a drop out if there are no slots, ie. no ability to drop out or slide out. Where the chain stay and seat stay meet that holds the hub. I'm sure there's a name.. Anyway, I see on the KM it is a through axle and not a QR. I want is an enclosed hole so that even if it becomes loose, it is less likely to disassemble mid-ride. I understand you have confidence in Surly's system. I'd be more likely to consider Kona's Honzo, which has an enclosed hub holder, even if it is Al. There is a steel version which is enclosed, but the frame doesn't hold the hub directly, and basically has a bolt-on through axle.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 23, 2021

bingemtbr said:
My best recommendation is to call Ventana Mountain Bikes (near Sacramento, CA) and speak to Sherwood or Teresa. Ventana offers stock, semi-custom, and full custom frames. All made in house in their shop in Sac. This may be the most co$tly option. Regardless, I'd recommend at least having a conversation to explore options and gain insight. Sherwood and Teresa are super good people.

I appreciate that you know of some good people. I'm not looking to spend 5k, more like 2k complete. And I think from some of the ideas posted here I'll be able to piece something together that will end up being tough and comfortable. Now I just need to make a frame decision and begin hunting components.

*OneSpeed* · Mar 23, 2021

TheRoadNotTaken said:
I have to admit, I thought through axles were synonymous with an enclosed..drop out? I'm guess it wouldn't be a drop out if there are no slots, ie. no ability to drop out or slide out. Where the chain stay and seat stay meet that holds the hub. I'm sure there's a name.. Anyway, I see on the KM it is a through axle and not a QR. I want is an enclosed hole so that even if it becomes loose, it is less likely to disassemble mid-ride. I understand you have confidence in Surly's system. I'd be more likely to consider Kona's Honzo, which has an enclosed hub holder, even if it is Al. There is a steel version which is enclosed, but the frame doesn't hold the hub directly, and basically has a bolt-on through axle.

Your thoughts are noted, but your concern is misplaced. A normal dropout isn't any better or worse than the Surly system, it's just different. I have 4 bikes with this system, if it had a weakness I would have found it by now.

In other words, don't let this be the deciding factor in your decision making. There are much more important things to take into consideration.

TooTallUK · Mar 24, 2021

You can find anything you want on the internet to justify any position or idea. QRs have been around for a very long time and worked fine. Human error is what causes most things to fail. There's 12mm bolt thru axles that work on bikes with drop outs. DT Swiss were the originators I think.
At 350 you want a strong frame and strong components. Hybrid style frames are not designed for trail riding at any weight so I would strongly recommend staying away from them as a basis for your build.

TheRoadNotTaken · Mar 25, 2021

TooTallUK said:
You can find anything you want on the internet to justify any position or idea. QRs have been around for a very long time and worked fine. Human error is what causes most things to fail. There's 12mm bolt thru axles that work on bikes with drop outs. DT Swiss were the originators I think.
At 350 you want a strong frame and strong components. Hybrid style frames are not designed for trail riding at any weight so I would strongly recommend staying away from them as a basis for your build.

I understand. Among the information on the internet is valid data someone can use to make a rational decision. The quality of the source determines how well it supports a point. In this case, it doesn't really matter if the testimonial I found was fabricated, or documented in a national security briefing, since the intent wasn't to convince someone of something but simply to illustrate a point, which is a vulnerability that I perceive to exist. The same objectivity that brought me to that conclusion, helps me to recognize there may be compensating factors, ie. forces applied by the bolt system, that prevent that vulnerability from being exposed. All other things being equal, an enclosed bolt hole is more secure than an open one. Physics.

Considering Surly in particular, the center of gravity at the moment of maximum inertial force during a drop will be between the wheels, causing both ends of the frame to elastically deform in the opposite direction, resulting in a non-zero force component on the hub in the direction of the horizontal slot. More technically, the wheel will want to squirt out. More so, if you weigh 350lbs.

*OneSpeed* · Mar 25, 2021

TheRoadNotTaken said:
I understand. Among the information on the internet is valid data someone can use to make a rational decision. The quality of the source determines how well it supports a point. In this case, it doesn't really matter if the testimonial I found was fabricated, or documented in a national security briefing, since the intent wasn't to convince someone of something but simply to illustrate a point, which is a vulnerability that I perceive to exist. The same objectivity that brought me to that conclusion, helps me to recognize there may be compensating factors, ie. forces applied by the bolt system, that prevent that vulnerability from being exposed. All other things being equal, an enclosed bolt hole is more secure than an open one. Physics.

Considering Surly in particular, the center of gravity at the moment of maximum inertial force during a drop will be between the wheels, causing both ends of the frame to elastically deform in the opposite direction, resulting in a non-zero force component on the hub in the direction of the horizontal slot. More technically, the wheel will want to squirt out. More so, if you weigh 350lbs.

Man comes to forum to seek advice from those that know more than him.

Man receives intelligent answers from experienced riders.

Man decides his Arm Chair Quarterback knowledge of physics supersedes a century of experience from people that design and ride bikes IRL. OK, nice talking to you.

big_stoke · Mar 25, 2021

I'm 6'4 327. I do drops and jumps and ride aggressively on a Krampus. Best bike on the market in that price range for us bigger guys. As suggested above, I run a shorter than stock stem and riser bars.

Could use some help locating frame design.

TheRoadNotTaken

masonmoa

brawlo

ChefLeo

TheRoadNotTaken

TheRoadNotTaken

TheRoadNotTaken

ChefLeo

OneSpeed

ChefLeo

TheRoadNotTaken

ChefLeo

bingemtbr

TheRoadNotTaken

TheRoadNotTaken

OneSpeed

TooTallUK

TheRoadNotTaken

OneSpeed

big_stoke

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