xD or microspline - upgrading a stable from 11sp freehubs

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

Summary: would you recommend xD or microspline for:

durability (I'm a bigger rider, use steel freehub bodies as I destroy aluminum ones quickly)
longevity as a standard - i don't need the latest/greatest, have been more than happy nursing 11sp for the last number of years. Ideally I'll keep 11sp for another few years and upgrade at the time I buy my next complete bike (surely it will be 1x 15sp by then...)
cost-effectiveness of the system getting ~500% range

Over the last few years i've stuck with classic (shimano 8/9/10/11) freehub bodies on all my bikes, mainly to only have to have have one set of spares. I only MTB (no road); if the common cassettes had enough range i'd probably be happy with 1x 9sp. My wheels are mostly DT 350's; Note that I'm a larger guy and have to spring for the DT steel freehub bodies (as I start to 'notch' the aluminum ones ~immediately; after a few months it's bad enough the cogs can't be removed) I'm buying new wheels and think it might be time to start slowly rolling to a new freehub standard.

I'm considering this mainly because (A) I have to buy a new set of wheels anyway and (B) i'm interested in a slightly larger range, but the ~500% 11sp cassettes either require new derailleurs (for the 50t) and/or don't have the best reviews. So I'm also on the fence about sticking with 11sp (such as an ethirteen 9-46) or just biting the bullet to get new 12sp shifters as well.

Between 4 family members, keeping on as few of standards as possible really simplifies things - both cost wise, but also being responsible for everyone's spares on moab trips, etc.

But which ... to ... choose ... (I want to be happy with the decision in 10 years

)

HerrKaLeu · Dec 1, 2020

In 10 years we will have gone through 2 more " standards"....

I'd start with a spreadsheet and price out what hub-conversions, cassettes etc. will cost. Also consider to only convert the newest bikes, so that you can use up any remaining cassettes and chains on the old lower speed bikes.

Forklifting (converting all your bikes at once) could be really expensive. IMHO, a better plan is to have a plan, and then execute as hubs or cassettes wear out.

If you buy new wheels, just go to 12 speed at this point. It is basically just the shifter as extra cost assuming cassette/chain are wear items and you buy new anyway. I'm in the same boat and am converting from 11 to 12 speed since the new Microspline doesn't come in 11 speed. So I decided to cry once and upgrade to 12-speed MS along with the new wheels.

If SRAM or Shimano... I'm not touching this one. This is preference. I'm a Shimano guy, but know for xD SRAM has good cassettes/chains in the higher price ranges. On the other hand, Shimano MS cassettes are much cheaper.

There are good reasons to go xD, and good reasons to go MS. And that is before you decide which shifter feels better.

I can't predict the future. But my take is since all SRAM drivetrains are now 12-speed, and Shimano is 12-speed down to Deore, all the other lower ones will go away. At least in the MTB groups. Then the supply of 11-speed wide range cassettes may dry out. That 11-speed e13 was more a stop-gap from some years ago before Eagle was widely available. I wouldn't convert my fleet based on that one single cassette. If you go 12-speed, You will have years of 12-speed cassettes of varying prices available. Until the same happens with 13-speed, but that will be years out.

Jayem · Dec 1, 2020

I think both are kind of a "fresh start" for both companies. Both will probably keep these standards for a while. HG was around a long time and it didn't work very well with 1x systems, it was never refined to cure some of the inherent issues, but Microspline and XD solve most of these. If you care about weight, XD allows for a single-piece cassette and in my experience, the single piece cassettes are very durable-long lasting, much longer than Shimano. They can be more expensive.

11spd may be around for a few years, racers on SRAM often prefer it to the 12, which is comparatively just lugging around more weight for no benefit. There will likely be a supply of shimano and SRAM cassettes for it, but if you are upgrading to XD or Microspline, you might as well go for the 12, that will undoubtedly be available for a very long time.

Another thing is shift force, the Shimano stuff takes significantly more force to upshift (to a harder gear). Some of our thumbs don't agree with this. They have the double-upshift function, so some people may prefer that. The SLX level shifter doesn't have this high shifting force, so some people prefer that on the Shimano side.

Harold · Dec 1, 2020

So while it's handy to have as much as possible all using the same parts, there's the opposite side of things that with aging components, the quality of the replacement bits will start to drop off. So if you keep your stuff for a long time, I think doing phased upgrades is a smarter path.

By phased upgrades, I mean only doing them when it makes sense.

My road/gravel bike is still on 10spd. It doesn't make sense to change the drivetrain on it yet.

I built a new mtb, and I put that one on 12spd. I ended up choosing Shimano with the micro spline freehub body (from I9) because I like Shimano a bit better. Though before micro spline was announced, it was going to be xD.

For you, since you're doing a new wheelset for one bike, it would make sense to consider a new 12spd drivetrain for it since you have to choose the freehub body anyway. You can change them later, but if you know you'll have to eventually, it's a waste of money to do it that way. Both xD and micro spline have their pluses and minuses. You can read all about them on the forums from folks who have used them. And by now, quite a few have used both types of freehub bodies.

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

Harold said:
Both xD and micro spline have their pluses and minuses. You can read all about them on the forums.

I spent some time looking around mtbr and google (well, DuckDuckGo !

) and I didn't find much. You see some reports of the single-piece XD cassette being slightly weaker, and stronger riders breaking them - this seems slightly logical as they are lighter, and they have a more complex structure; but the number of reports is so small I can't really draw a conclusion from it.

In my riding group, I have only one data point - the single xD bike I had for a time, i managed to shred the outboard drive-side cartridge bearing of the xd driver. But again, sample size 1 means little.

Do you have any specifics you remember that I could search for; durability or any other factor? Thanks!

Cleared2land · Dec 1, 2020

high_desert_mud said:
Summary: would you recommend xD or microspline for:

durability (I'm a bigger rider, use steel freehub bodies as I destroy aluminum ones quickly)

longevity as a standard...

Note that I'm a larger guy and have to spring for the DT steel freehub bodies (as I start to 'notch' the aluminum ones ~immediately; after a few months it's bad enough the cogs can't be removed)

For big guys that are tough on traditional, Shimano type aluminum freehub bodies, the XD freehub is a non-issue because of the design.

HerrKaLeu · Dec 1, 2020

FYI, the xD cassettes are always a sort of one-piece. Milled steel (the XXXX types) or pinned together (GX) plus an added Al cog.

The MS cassettes can be one piece like the XXXX types, or be in the more economical assembled form (the ones Shimano makes). I assume more makers will make MS cassettes and pick a process they think can sell.

Milling a cassette give you a lighter cassette, but cost much more. So for MS, manufacturers have the choice for either. In theory someone could have milled an HG cassette, but I'm not aware of one.

Don't mistake any of the NX/SX cassettes for xD, they are just 12-speed HG cassettes.

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

Cleared2land said:
For big guys that are tough on traditional, Shimano type aluminum freehub bodies, the XD freehub is a non-issue because of the design.

You're presumably referring to the "splines" of engagement at the base of the xd/driver + large cog? Yes, this definitely solves the scoring issue of aluminum hyperglide cassettes; only one gear at a time is active, but the load is spread across a much wider area (~4x the width?) with that single wider toothed area at the base of the xD. I completely agree.

However, choosing between xD and microspline - microspline at least makes progress here; ~twice the splines on the microspline mean ~1/2 the pressure/scoring vs the HG ....

So the question becomes, does the ~~4x improvement (xD vs HG) in this particular load have a practical improvement over the 2x improvement (MS over HG)??

And, are there any ramifications (worse load on bearings, etc) of the way the xD driver/cassettes mate versus microspline?

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

HerrKaLeu said:
I assume more makers will make MS cassettes and pick a process they think can sell.

This would imply a more robust after market for microspline than xD ... I've wondered the same; we have few facts to go on, but this logic (the microspline stamped cogs are _much_ easier to manufacture, and the essentially same as the existing HG processes) seems sound.

While durability probably stacks higher on the list, aftermarket support & longevity is definitely important.

Cleared2land · Dec 1, 2020

high_desert_mud said:
And, are there any ramifications (worse load on bearings, etc) of the way the xD driver/cassettes mate versus microspline?

XD Freehub bearings are rarely a problem. Unlike hubs or bottom bracket bearings, the XD bearings are well protected from the elements and need very minimal servicing if any. As far as I know, all XD's have double wide inboard bearings to distribute the load.

Additionally, I much prefer the use of pawl freehubs over the Shimano styled internal works for ease of maintenance and regular servicing.

HerrKaLeu · Dec 1, 2020

high_desert_mud said:
This would imply a more robust after market for microspline than xD ... I've wondered the same; we have few facts to go on, but this logic (the microspline stamped cogs are _much_ easier to manufacture, and the essentially same as the existing HG processes) seems sound.

While durability probably stacks higher on the list, aftermarket support & longevity is definitely important.

xD is older, so there was more time for aftermarket cassettes. And xD started out with $400 cassettes, so there was more incentive and pressure to have alternatives. Shimano MS cassettes start at way under $90, so there is less incentive or need for alternative products. Still, would be nice to have more options. But I assume the HG+ shifting is patented, so the 3rd party cassettes would not shift as nicely.

I bought an SLX 12-speed chain/cassette combo for $110 shipped and taxed, so I'm happy with the pricing so far.

Jayem · Dec 1, 2020

HerrKaLeu said:
FYI, the xD cassettes are always a sort of one-piece. Milled steel (the XXXX types) or pinned together (GX) plus an added Al cog.

The MS cassettes can be one piece like the XXXX types, or be in the more economical assembled form (the ones Shimano makes). I assume more makers will make MS cassettes and pick a process they think can sell.

Milling a cassette give you a lighter cassette, but cost much more. So for MS, manufacturers have the choice for either. In theory someone could have milled an HG cassette, but I'm not aware of one.

Don't mistake any of the NX/SX cassettes for xD, they are just 12-speed HG cassettes.

I'm thinking that SRAM patented the one-piece cassette. AFAIK, the current 9xxx series are still a combination of materials and separate carriers, like my 9000. I know they still have the loose small cogs.

HerrKaLeu · Dec 1, 2020

Jayem said:
I'm thinking that SRAM patented the one-piece cassette. AFAIK, the current 9xxx series are still a combination of materials and separate carriers, like my 9000. I know they still have the loose small cogs.

You didn't see the link to the MS one-piece cassette from Garbaruk?

SRAM may have the patent on their specific cassette (shape of teeth, shift ramps etc.). but I doubt they patented the idea to mill something out of a piece. That is old technology. If Shimano would mill a cassette, they likely would use their tooth and ramp design. Milling is easier than assembling a cassette... the problem is you waste material, and you use a very expensive machine for quite some time for one cassette.

I bet Shimano contemplated milling, but decided assembling is the better compromise. And there is no reason that a future XTR cassette won't be milled. I doubt that will happen for XT and below.

So I wasn't planning to sway someone to Shimano. But because people said xD is the only option to get one-piece cassettes, I wanted to point out for MS you can have milled cassettes for $250. I have no idea if the Garbaruk cassette is equivalent to a SRAM cassette. But I tend to think it would be better than an XTR cassette since it is almost all steel. Is it better than the $400 XXX? no idea....

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

my understanding is that all microspline freehubs are intended to be alloy (eg Aluminum)

They have twice the teath, and slightly taller teeth, than the HG freehubs. So that's ~~half or less the pressure from a cog working to deform the

Anyone have insight if this is enough to keep a typical ~clyde from severely notching the aluminum with the smaller cogs?

Jayem · Dec 1, 2020

HerrKaLeu said:
You didn't see the link to the MS one-piece cassette from Garbaruk?

SRAM may have the patent on their specific cassette (shape of teeth, shift ramps etc.). but I doubt they patented the idea to mill something out of a piece. That is old technology. If Shimano would mill a cassette, they likely would use their tooth and ramp design. Milling is easier than assembling a cassette... the problem is you waste material, and you use a very expensive machine for quite some time for one cassette.

I bet Shimano contemplated milling, but decided assembling is the better compromise. And there is no reason that a future XTR cassette won't be milled. I doubt that will happen for XT and below.

So I wasn't planning to sway someone to Shimano. But because people said xD is the only option to get one-piece cassettes, I wanted to point out for MS you can have milled cassettes for $250. I have no idea if the Garbaruk cassette is equivalent to a SRAM cassette. But I tend to think it would be better than an XTR cassette since it is almost all steel. Is it better than the $400 XXX? no idea....

I doubt milling steel is easier than stamping it. Aluminum maybe. AFAIK, steel is pretty intense on wear to the milling machines.

Also, if patented, SRAM could license that patent, but of course probably never to Shimano.

OneTrustMan · Dec 1, 2020

high_desert_mud said:
my understanding is that all microspline freehubs are intended to be alloy (eg Aluminum)

They have twice the teath, and slightly taller teeth, than the HG freehubs. So that's ~~half or less the pressure from a cog working to deform the

Anyone have insight if this is enough to keep a typical ~clyde from severely notching the aluminum with the smaller cogs?

There are steel MS hubs.

May I ask why you not consider buying a new wheelset with an steel HG hub body?
You wrote that you made great experiences with them and you also can go 12 speed with them.

In terms of options ( different speeds and drivetrains ) HG seems to be the best option.
I'm in the progress of upgrading my old 3x10 to a 1x12 and also decided against a new MS hub.

My old steel HG hub is fine and I have more options to choose from with it.

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

OneTrustMan said:
May I ask why you not consider buying a new wheelset with an steel HG hub body?

I do - except I have to buy the steel freehub aftermarket. At least in my search results, for instance, it's cheapest to buy a dt350 big ride, with stock Al HG freehub, plus an aftermarket steel DT HG freehub. I would think that it'd be cheaper to buy it in one go - I just haven't found it commonly sold that way (?)

OneTrustMan said:
You wrote that you made great experiences with them and you also can go 12 speed with them.

Sorry, might have been confusing - I mean I don't care about 12 speeds versus 11 speeds (honestly I almost always find myself shifing more than one gear at a time); even with the limited road riding I do (kid carrying on cargo bike) a well-spaced 9sp would be sufficient.

I _would_ like a little extra range. the 11sp options for ~500% certainly exist, but it's obviously a less optimal setup than just getting a 10% smaller cog (11-->10tooth)... the compromises are one ore more of cassettes weigh more, cost nearly $300 or more, have worse shifting under load, and/or are [have reviews claiming they are] less durable.

OneTrustMan said:
I'm in the progress of upgrading my old 3x10 to a 1x12 and also decided against a new MS hub. My old steel HG hub is fine and I have more options to choose from with it.

see above, although I don't follow you on the number of options. Sure there are a lot of people making HG for every speed versus the newer standards; but at any given price point, you see more options aftermarket fitting your personal cost+performance+durability? But this definitely one part my question - looking forward, what do folks expect for OEM (definitely shifter, also cassette) and after market (only cassette) support for xD vs MS.

WHALENARD · Dec 1, 2020

I'm currently a big fan of XD. Srams XO1 series cassettes are a good value over the long haul. It seems there were some broken 50T cog teeth at the top of the lower cog shift ramps but am guessing sram somehow remedied this as I've not seen any posted in quite a while. XD was a much bigger engineering feat than MS and personally I believe it to be both simpler and better.

On the flip side Srams pinned cassettes are absolute garbage imo. In that regard Shimano owns the game at lower price point drivetrains. I'm 235#'s at my fighting weight and can enter spring much heavier depending on what I was pursuing through the winter. Sram pinned cassettes have never worked or lasted diddly for me and that theme continues with eagle.

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk

high_desert_mud · Dec 1, 2020

WHALENARD said:
I'm currently a big fan of XD. Srams XO1 series cassettes are a good value over the long haul. [...] On the flip side Srams pinned cassettes are absolute garbage imo. [...] I'm 235#'s [OP: about the same...] Sram pinned cassettes have never worked or lasted diddly for me and that theme continues with eagle.

Appreciate that info, I hadn't considered that making a difference. If correct that would be really relevant, as the X01 (looks like that is cheapest one-piece) is not cheap; ~$250 when on a good sale.

HerrKaLeu · Dec 1, 2020

Jayem said:
I doubt milling steel is easier than stamping it. Aluminum maybe. AFAIK, steel is pretty intense on wear to the milling machines.

Also, if patented, SRAM could license that patent, but of course probably never to Shimano.

the fact that something is milled is not patentable. Milling has existed for too long to prevent Shimano from using milling. And Shimano can come up with their own milled cassette. Basically what Garbaruk did.

It is one step for a laborer to make the milled 11-speeds. Then add the stamped large cog. Yes, the CNC machine is expensive, but it is easy from a labor point. it would be hard if you didn't have a CNC machine and would use a small file to chisel it out

If you assemble a cassette, you need to stamp 12 cogs, and assemble them to spiders, use spacers etc. Much more labor (but much cheaper machines)

As for the future cassettes, here some truisms to consider:
- all new MTB drivetrains nowadays are 12-speed. Love it or not, it won't go back to 10 speed
- Shimano has abandoned (or not even started) 12 speed for MS
- SRAM doesn't offer anything under 11 for xD. and the 11-speed xD likely is just legacy to cover the older drivetrains they sold years ago.
- 12-speed HG is offered by SRAM, but this is just a budget afterthought for upgrading old wheels, or very budget new bikes.

My money is on that the future premium drivetrains all will be xD or MS. HG will be dragged along for a while for budget and legacy reasons. Same way you still can buy 26" tires (and even bikes). one can argue if xD or MS is better, but either is better than HG.

And I'm not making a statement that this is a good or bad development, it is just what has been developing the last years and will develop further.

xD or microspline - upgrading a stable from 11sp freehubs

high_desert_mud

HerrKaLeu

Jayem

Harold

high_desert_mud

Cleared2land

HerrKaLeu

high_desert_mud

high_desert_mud

Cleared2land

HerrKaLeu

Jayem

HerrKaLeu

high_desert_mud

Jayem

OneTrustMan

high_desert_mud

WHALENARD

high_desert_mud

HerrKaLeu

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