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jm2e

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Gonna just drop this here.

I'm sure Noel just threw up a little bit in his mouth, but for a lot of what Mrs Jm2e and I do an E-Delirium would be the perfect bike. Slog up a long hill that we'd rather get shuttled or chairlifted to the top of, then head quickly downhill on a chunky technical slugfest. Repeat until tired of pedaling up. You can see how changing that last variable would really make a difference.

Looking forward to the passionate discourse.
 
Gonna just drop this here.

I'm sure Noel just threw up a little bit in his mouth, but for a lot of what Mrs Jm2e and I do an E-Delirium would be the perfect bike. Slog up a long hill that we'd rather get shuttled or chairlifted to the top of, then head quickly downhill on a chunky technical slugfest. Repeat until tired of pedaling up. You can see how changing that last variable would really make a difference.

Looking forward to the passionate discourse.
Interestingly enough.....

I have thought about this a lot. Never in public before though.

And the Delirium IS absolutely the perfect bike at Knolly if we were going to move into the e-bike world.

I love electric motors (my next car will almost certainly be fully electric), I think electric city / commuter bikes are great and I have a background in high-tech that's deep enough to dive into this topic pretty seriously if we ever decided to.

However, I have a huge issue with E-bikes being touted as "just regular mountain bikes": they're not, even with a "paltry" 250 watts. 250 watts is pretty much like doubling or tripling a decent rider's power output so it's not really the same as a regular bike. Oh yeah, AND IT HAS A MOTOR. And, perhaps most importantly, I'm firmly against anything that cheapens the experience (whatever that experience is supposed to be). The e-bike debate is complicated and I'm not going to pick sides but I think you can figure out my opinion pretty easily.

So, if - and this is a HUGE IF because we have a ton of projects in the works right now and an electric MTB is absolutely not on the radar... - if, we were ever to take the plunge into e-bikes, the bike would:

  • have a metric **** ton more power than 250 watts at the rider's disposal;
  • have pedal assist AND a throttle;
  • NOT be intended as a replacement for your regular mountain bike.
There, I said it. Let the fire storm start :)
 
if, we were ever to take the plunge into e-bikes, the bike would:

  • have a metric **** ton more power than 250 watts at the rider's disposal;
  • have pedal assist AND a throttle;
  • NOT be intended as a replacement for your regular mountain bike.
There, I said it. Let the fire storm start :)
You know if you make something like that, a number of interested people would then look for a tweener bike to bridge the gap, since they're afraid or unwilling to make such a blind leap to something so different from what they're used to or comfortable with.
 
So, if - and this is a HUGE IF because we have a ton of projects in the works right now and an electric MTB is absolutely not on the radar... - if, we were ever to take the plunge into e-bikes, the bike would:

  • have a metric **** ton more power than 250 watts at the rider's disposal;
  • have pedal assist AND a throttle;
  • NOT be intended as a replacement for your regular mountain bike.
There, I said it. Let the fire storm start :)
I feel the same way about ebikes as you, but then I saw this and was sold! :D

https://www.harley-davidson.com/gb/en/motorcycles/future-vehicles/livewire.html
 
I like the idea of not having to drive to the trail head & DH tires without the penalty. At the same time I have seen folks recklessly riding e-bikes uphill on downhill sections. Seen folks that are just getting into the sport starting out on e-bikes.

My biggest concern is trail closure! We need more trails with jumps & drops.
 
At least you've got the perfect company name for e-bikes....Knoll-E! ;)

I'm glad the Knoll-E Delirium Extreme will have major power and a throttle. Might as well ditch the pedals and install pegs. If we are going to ride motorcycles on singletrack let's not pretend they are bicycles.

Clearance for 3" plus tires would be ideal as well. We'll need major traction to lay all that power down. :)
 
While I am fundamentally opposed to ebikes, fundamentalism is stupid and I can see the place they have. I can totally see us getting one for my wife to help get her into the sport some time in the future. She's done a little bit of riding but isn't bike-fit and is also still pretty cautious going downhill, that combined with the hilly terrain around here and a lack of local beginner trails and beginner-level riders to ride with make her an ideal candidate for a little battery-assistance to help her get into it.

I'm pretty glad a Knoll-E isn't really even on the horizon though, I'd much rather put wifey on a big-brand battery moped and maintain my purist-boutique-elitist snobbery when riding with the boys.
:p
 
I've got a Chilly as my second bike (won't sell it now that 26ers are pretty worthless), and plan to electrify it with a DIY kit, 1,2kw motor and backpack kept batteries. Would love to use it using the lunch time at work (I live in Chile and we have some good trails around in Santiago).

Shall keep you posted, as I see that ebikes do have some value even for "mtb purists".
 
Knoll-E

Interestingly enough.....

I have thought about this a lot. Never in public before though.

And the Delirium IS absolutely the perfect bike at Knolly if we were going to move into the e-bike world.

I love electric motors (my next car will almost certainly be fully electric), I think electric city / commuter bikes are great and I have a background in high-tech that's deep enough to dive into this topic pretty seriously if we ever decided to.

However, I have a huge issue with E-bikes being touted as "just regular mountain bikes": they're not, even with a "paltry" 250 watts. 250 watts is pretty much like doubling or tripling a decent rider's power output so it's not really the same as a regular bike. Oh yeah, AND IT HAS A MOTOR. And, perhaps most importantly, I'm firmly against anything that cheapens the experience (whatever that experience is supposed to be). The e-bike debate is complicated and I'm not going to pick sides but I think you can figure out my opinion pretty easily.

So, if - and this is a HUGE IF because we have a ton of projects in the works right now and an electric MTB is absolutely not on the radar... - if, we were ever to take the plunge into e-bikes, the bike would:

  • have a metric **** ton more power than 250 watts at the rider's disposal;
  • have pedal assist AND a throttle;
  • NOT be intended as a replacement for your regular mountain bike.
There, I said it. Let the fire storm start :)
reviving this old thread because I have to believe you are somewhat in a different place on this these days, Noel. I'm 50, I maintain or build trail two to three times per week, and that means my endurance level has plummeted but absolutely for the right reason. Beyond that, there are three to four places considered downhill areas that don't have shuttles or lifts within a few hours tops of Atlanta. With more to come. These are the kinds of places I can ride an analog bike and get in four to six runs or use an e-bike and get in 10 to 15 runs. It's a no brainier. One of those places is Ride Kanuga, Neko Mulally's new spot in WNC. Not only do they encourage e-bikes, but they also rent at least two different types. while I was once opposed to them for a few different reasons, it is now evident that they are here to stay regardless of what people think. for me the benefits are the lap counts I referenced above, but also that I can get more trail built and cleared. I've got two of your bikes now, a chillcotin and a delirium, and would love to add a Knolly e-bike to the mix. Can you give some kind of update or insight as to where your head is on these currently?

And while we're at it, will we ever see a true downhill bike come back around? I'm all about that, as well.

Thanks!
 
So here we are now with the Knolly Chill-ectric

Finished the first version of the motor, with a 1500watt motor, using 15t and 120t pulleys (HTD 3m) for reduction. The problem was slipage. The good thing was that it was incredibly well integrated:



Now in the second version, less integration, but with dual reduction, using htd 5m pulleys (10:35 and 16:45). Now slipage is not a problem, and can use 500 watts (I am using a VESC controller with which you can setup max amps, watts, rpm, etc):



Almost everything was built with a Ender 3 3d printer. Not bad (for a lawyer!) being able to do some 700 meter ascents rides on 1 hour.
 
Finished the first version of the motor, with a 1500watt motor, using 15t and 120t pulleys (HTD 3m) for reduction. The problem was slipage. The good thing was that it was incredibly well integrated:

View attachment 1366877

Now in the second version, less integration, but with dual reduction, using htd 5m pulleys (10:35 and 16:45). Now slipage is not a problem, and can use 500 watts (I am using a VESC controller with which you can setup max amps, watts, rpm, etc):

View attachment 1366879

Almost everything was built with a Ender 3 3d printer. Not bad (for a lawyer!) being able to do some 700 meter ascents rides on 1 hour.
That's crazy cool. Now I'm wishing I kept my Dayglo Chilcotin for an eBike conversion. I was totally in the same camp as Noel, two years ago when this thread started, but the better these eBikes get and the older I get, and the more laps I want to do, and the more exploring I want to do before I die, the more an eBike starts to make sense.

Mt. Fromme would be the perfect place for multiple laps on an eBike (are they even allowed?). One fire road climb, dozens of fun gnarly, tech trails coming off it. Do one or two laps on your bike....... or 4-5 on your eBike after/before work? It really starts to look enticing..
 
Isn't this similar to the way Harley-Davidson got its start in the motorcycle business in 1903? Bolting engines to bicycles?

Only in Knolly's case it'll be an electric motor instead of an infernal combustion engine.

In any case this leads to my suggestion for naming the upcoming Knolly ebike -- call it the Knolly Davidson.
=sParty
 
OK, I'll dip my toe in the water:

The post pulled up is 2 years old. What's changed? Well I carried through on my automobile commitments and now drive an EV and am NEVER going back to a gas powered car. I might rent one if the need arises, but for day to day driving there is no need (for my personal usage needs) to get a gas car, and the EV infrastructure continues to grow. They will take over the vast majority of vehicle applications: the current generation EVs on the market are only the starting point of well integrated and highly functional battery electric vehicles.

So, regarding my E-bike comments:

My thoughts stand and are exactly the same as they were 2 years ago. What does that mean?

My biggest beef with E-bikes isn't "e-bikes are bad": of course they are fun and Knolly could VERY easily design one and get it on the market ASAP. Honestly, it's not hard at all to integrate a Bosch or Shimano E-steps motor (or bafung or brose or, etc...) into a bike. In fact, the biggest issue is dealing with the battery and deciding what route to go (and actually building a decent wiring harness - most are terrible). Unless you design the entire system from scratch (yes, I'm talking about the Turbo Levo), e-bikes are surprisingly easy to make because the drive unit companies have made their systems very easy to integrate.

And that's the first problem. Companies like Knolly exist because we do something different. We are literally unique in what we do for suspension bikes. We can say this because we own and develop our own IP and I have a bunch of patents granted in my name with more in development. The USPTO has said what we do is innovative and different enough that they granted these patents to us. Four by 4 suspension exists because it can provide performance advantages where subtleties matter. The problem with drop in e-bike systems is that they make all bikes more and more similar (homogenized), the tripling of effective power erodes those subtle differences between suspension designs and the bikes become more of a branding exercise than engineering exercise. Maybe that's how it's always been (marketing over engineering), but it's not how Knolly is. So, if we bring out an e-bike (and I won't say that I'm opposed to it), we're not going to be a copy cat bike like every other bike on the market. Specialized gets huge props here: they are hands down far and away better than every other brand in this product category.

Problem number two is that NOW, CURRENTLY, you can connect the dots from a 100% human powered mountain bike to a 100% gas powered dirt bike by over a half dozen incremental steps. This is a HUGE problem for advocacy groups and land managers. In fact, in the USA you have groups like People for Bikes (which sounds all altruistic but it really an industry organization) lobbying around the established hard working advocacy groups that have spent a decade or two building relationships with land managers to get mountain bikes allowed. PFBs is promoting e-bikes aggressively because they are the fastest growing market segment. I have a problem with that as well and fear that we'll ultimately become our own worst enemy. Perhaps not, but it's a very delicate balance and anyone who's worked with the BLM in the western USA will understand how the subtleties get lost... Then again, the BLM seems to like guns, dirt bikes, cattle farming and oil exploration, so maybe motors on bikes is just what we need to get more trails on federal lands!

Remember, according to the media, "Simon Cowell was riding an e-bike"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life.../simon-cowell-accident-electric-bicycle-sales-soaring-are-they-safe/3335931001/

https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...ation/story/2020-08-09/simon-cowell-injures-back-while-testing-electric-bicycle

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sim...itics/simon-cowell-accident-renews-bike-safety-concerns-sales/story?id=72269495

I think I've made my point here.

So, from my perspective, if / when we tackle the e-bike topic (and I'm sure it is more a "When" than an "If" - we still don't have a new Podium and the last batch was made in 2013...):

  • We need to do something unique and to have a USP that really separates it from the other products out there.
  • We need to do something that isn't just another product with a different brand name on it. It needs to have a niche and we need to own that niche.
  • We need to do something that feels right ethically and isn't just a portfolio filler. It needs to be designed with the future needs, not the current needs. And interestingly, I think that trail maintenance is exactly where we would focus our first e-bike project. We'll see: I have a development schedule that's easily full for the next couple of years, but perhaps there will be time to tinker.

Ok, that was more of a cannonball than toe-dip :)
 
Finished the first version of the motor, with a 1500watt motor, using 15t and 120t pulleys (HTD 3m) for reduction. The problem was slipage. The good thing was that it was incredibly well integrated:

View attachment 1366877

Now in the second version, less integration, but with dual reduction, using htd 5m pulleys (10:35 and 16:45). Now slipage is not a problem, and can use 500 watts (I am using a VESC controller with which you can setup max amps, watts, rpm, etc):

View attachment 1366879

Almost everything was built with a Ender 3 3d printer. Not bad (for a lawyer!) being able to do some 700 meter ascents rides on 1 hour.
Amazing!

Back pack battery I assume?

THIS is what I'm talking about... If you're going to take a step, you might as well make it a meaningful one...

Awesome - just awesome :)
 
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