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bauerb

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
wasn't sure where to post this, but I posted it here because I am passionate about getting my exercise bike ready to ride. I bought a used Lifecycle, and immediately replaced the seat and bought some SPD's. the lifecycle has single piece cranks requiring a 1/2" pedal, and there are no SPD's with a 1/2" thread. I called my LBS looking for a step down adapter from 9/16's to 1/2" and the tech, who had never heard of this kind of adapter was appalled that I would even think of altering my "Q value". so what is a "Q value" ?

BTW - I ordered the adapters from Harris Cyclery and will have them today. I will install and test tonight. I expect the adapter to push the pedals out about 3/4". I figure so what, the spread of pedals on the exer-bike is probably less than my mountain bike anyway
 
Ok, but...

Is their a standard size? Are all cranks the same? What determines if your bike is set up with a narrow or wide Q - if their is even such a thing? Any reason someone would want to or not want to change the Q?

We now know what it is, but what is it? :)
 
Q-Factor

First time I heard about it was from Grant Peterson in an advertisement or catalog from Bridgestone Cycles from 1988 or 1989. I think they were promoting a smaller Q-factor for a more natural spacing of your legs and perhaps a more efficient or comfortable pedal stroke.

As an exaggerated example, think if you had to pedal a horse, how difficult it would be with your legs so far apart. You wouldn't have as much power on the downward stroke.

If I remember correctly, the Bridgestone MBs had a narrow BB shell and the top end bikes used a Specialized crank with a narrow Q-factor. (The offset from where the spindle enters the crank to where the pedal attaches was smaller)

Short chain stays, thick tubing on chainstays, rear suspension, tire clearance, etc could affect Q-factor because, obviously, your cranks have to clear your frame.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
what I found

what I found in looking for 1/2" spd's is that they don't exist. further, there seems to be only 1 supplier of step down adapters in the universe - Harris Cyclery AKA Sheldon Brown. much more prevalent is the Kneesaver Q-factor stretcher. which provides extra Q, but does not change the 9/16 thread size. so if you want to put spd's on your old beach cruiser or exer-bike, eather change out the entire crankset, or visit Harris cycles

Drevil said:
You may or may not notice it, but basically run whatever feels comfortable for you. A few links:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cranks.html#tread
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_cranks.html
 
bauerb said:
wasn't sure where to post this, but I posted it here because I am passionate about getting my exercise bike ready to ride. I bought a used Lifecycle, and immediately replaced the seat and bought some SPD's. the lifecycle has single piece cranks requiring a 1/2" pedal, and there are no SPD's with a 1/2" thread. I called my LBS looking for a step down adapter from 9/16's to 1/2" and the tech, who had never heard of this kind of adapter was appalled that I would even think of altering my "Q value". so what is a "Q value" ?

BTW - I ordered the adapters from Harris Cyclery and will have them today. I will install and test tonight. I expect the adapter to push the pedals out about 3/4". I figure so what, the spread of pedals on the exer-bike is probably less than my mountain bike anyway
Switching from a 9/16" spindle to a 1/2" spindle wouldn't alter your Q factor at all. It's just a different pedal spindle size, as in BMX pedal v. mtb pedal. I'm appalled that he was appalled. If I didn't know better, I'd say someone's compensating for his lack of product knowledge by trying to make you feel dumb.

I think the term "Q factor" is derived from anatomy/biomechanics in which "Q angle" has to do with the angle of your femurs:
http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/qangle.htm
Q angle affects the distance between your feet (Q factor).
 
sgltrak said:
First time I heard about it was from Grant Peterson in an advertisement or catalog from Bridgestone Cycles from 1988 or 1989. I think they were promoting a smaller Q-factor for a more natural spacing of your legs and perhaps a more efficient or comfortable pedal stroke.
Apparently, the story was that Grant was having knee problems on his mountain bike. When he thought about why that might be, he figured his cranks were wider on his mountain bike than on his road bike, pictured riding with legs splayed out exaggeratedly to the sides, and came up with "narrower is better". There's a loosely used term in many industries called a q-factor, which is usually used to describe some unknown or unpredictable element. Grant nicked the name, came out with his idea, and it kept everyone quite busy for a number of years trying to determine if the idea was sound or not, and more importantly, if it would sell cranks or not.

Bill Mcready, the founder of Santana, really has a ball with Q-Factor discussion. He was involved in many experiments and tests to determine the physiological impact of the q-factor, in an attempt to come to some sort of peak-efficiency fit-formula. The q-factor is actually a pretty thoroughly tested theory. Ultimately, the American companies got together with a Swiss laboratory and many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and formulated a project to determine the most advantageous BB width formula. Strangely, they found zero effect to power output or efficiency within the range of available crank/BB sets on the market. They had to go several inches wider before any discernable effect was aparrent. Going too narrow (unrealistically narrow, as you'd only ever find on the testing rig), was the closer danger zone, but had more to do with decreased lateral balance & the effect it had on the smoothness of the stroke. The test was repeated again. And again. Every couple years, someone would devise a new test, and every time, the results were the same. Eventually, mfgs simply gave up on the idea of a golden formula. Marketing departments, however, need technical sounding buzzwords to put in catalogues, and Q-Factor really stuck. It did, and still does help sell cranks. Understandably, the companies that paid all that money for tests weren't exactly anxious to come out and give away their results. So the q-factor has escalated into some weird legend/myth to be renounced by those who actually took it seriously enough to test, and to be believed in by anyone who wasn't.

As far as all practicality is concerned, if you're riding a relatively wide q-factor drivetrain, and you switch to a narrow one, you'll notice a difference. If you're riding a narrow one and switch to a wider one, you'll notice a difference as well. The fact is, from a power output standpoint, they're the same. But if one's more comfortable than the other, go with whichever makes you happy. Everybody is different in what they find more comfortable. And that's all there is to it.
 
Nat said:
Switching from a 9/16" spindle to a 1/2" spindle wouldn't alter your Q factor at all. It's just a different pedal spindle size, as in BMX pedal v. mtb pedal. I'm appalled that he was appalled. If I didn't know better, I'd say someone's compensating for his lack of product knowledge by trying to make you feel dumb.
What you wrote is true, but the adaptors are little stepdown widgets that go betwixt the pedal and crank, so what the bikestore dude said was true as well.

Image
 
No, I'm appalled at you being appalled at the mechanic being appalled. Of course the Q factor will grow when you screw a 9/16" pedal into a 1/2" adapter that then threads into the crank. Also, don't simply call a 1/2" pedal a "BMX" pedal. Typically, the narrower the Q factor the better. Crank Bros. has produced custom short-spindle Egg-Beaters for some XC pros for this reason. I hope exercise-bike guy has a wide pelvis.
 
A couple years ago I picked up a wind trainer that had a pretty wide bottom bracket. Sounds similar to your setup. I threw on some bmx pedals with toe clips, which worked fine. My son and I both tried to use it but it was so ergonomically incorrect that 20 minutes on it would just wreck your knees. There is such a thing as too much "Q". I took it to the dump and spent $600 on a spinning bike with a Shimano bb. It was worth every penny. Anyway, If the bb width isn't a problem you could just put a helicoil insert in. Simple (if you have a few tools) and cheap without adding to the Q.
 
Psycle151 said:
No, I'm appalled at you being appalled at the mechanic being appalled. Of course the Q factor will grow when you screw a 9/16" pedal into a 1/2" adapter that then threads into the crank. Also, don't simply call a 1/2" pedal a "BMX" pedal. Typically, the narrower the Q factor the better. Crank Bros. has produced custom short-spindle Egg-Beaters for some XC pros for this reason. I hope exercise-bike guy has a wide pelvis.
That's it, I quit!
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
so its not a Q issue

well if Q factor is literally the distance between the outside edges of the 2 cranks, then adding the adapter won't change the Q factor. It will however increase the span between the 2 pedals by about a 1/2" on each side. my guess is that this isn't exactly going to create the "pedaling a horse" problem.

warmonkey said:
A couple years ago I picked up a wind trainer that had a pretty wide bottom bracket. Sounds similar to your setup. I threw on some bmx pedals with toe clips, which worked fine. My son and I both tried to use it but it was so ergonomically incorrect that 20 minutes on it would just wreck your knees. There is such a thing as too much "Q". I took it to the dump and spent $600 on a spinning bike with a Shimano bb. It was worth every penny. Anyway, If the bb width isn't a problem you could just put a helicoil insert in. Simple (if you have a few tools) and cheap without adding to the Q.
 
bauerb said:
well if Q factor is literally the distance between the outside edges of the 2 cranks, then adding the adapter won't change the Q factor. It will however increase the span between the 2 pedals by about a 1/2" on each side. my guess is that this isn't exactly going to create the "pedaling a horse" problem.
In the discussions of Q, they probably aren't taking into account the adapters because most people don't use them.
 
bauerb said:
well if Q factor is literally the distance between the outside edges of the 2 cranks, then adding the adapter won't change the Q factor. It will however increase the span between the 2 pedals by about a 1/2" on each side. my guess is that this isn't exactly going to create the "pedaling a horse" problem.
Right-o. That's a bit of width to add, but there should be some adjustment in the cleats... of course, then you'd need shoes set up specifically for this, or you'd be grinding into your crankarms back on your normal bike... if you have an extra pair of shoes, that's probably fine, but otherwise, if it came down to blowing another $100 on shoes, I'd just replace the crankset and get it over with.
 
Cloud9 said:
Apparently, the story was that Grant was having knee problems on his mountain bike. When he thought about why that might be, he figured his cranks were wider on his mountain bike than on his road bike, pictured riding with legs splayed out exaggeratedly to the sides, and came up with "narrower is better". There's a loosely used term in many industries called a q-factor, which is usually used to describe some unknown or unpredictable element. Grant nicked the name, came out with his idea, and it kept everyone quite busy for a number of years trying to determine if the idea was sound or not, and more importantly, if it would sell cranks or not.

Bill Mcready, the founder of Santana, really has a ball with Q-Factor discussion. He was involved in many experiments and tests to determine the physiological impact of the q-factor, in an attempt to come to some sort of peak-efficiency fit-formula. The q-factor is actually a pretty thoroughly tested theory. Ultimately, the American companies got together with a Swiss laboratory and many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and formulated a project to determine the most advantageous BB width formula. Strangely, they found zero effect to power output or efficiency within the range of available crank/BB sets on the market. They had to go several inches wider before any discernable effect was aparrent. Going too narrow (unrealistically narrow, as you'd only ever find on the testing rig), was the closer danger zone, but had more to do with decreased lateral balance & the effect it had on the smoothness of the stroke. The test was repeated again. And again. Every couple years, someone would devise a new test, and every time, the results were the same. Eventually, mfgs simply gave up on the idea of a golden formula. Marketing departments, however, need technical sounding buzzwords to put in catalogues, and Q-Factor really stuck. It did, and still does help sell cranks. Understandably, the companies that paid all that money for tests weren't exactly anxious to come out and give away their results. So the q-factor has escalated into some weird legend/myth to be renounced by those who actually took it seriously enough to test, and to be believed in by anyone who wasn't.
Hey, that's awesome info! Do you remember from where you learned it?

In graduate school I headed a research group that tried to determine the effect of bottom bracket spindle length on power output, but we sucked and didn't get anywhere with it so it got chit-canned. We didn't have any funding either, but our group was such a mess that a million dollars probably wouldn't have gotten us anywhere.
 
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