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Coil Shock Feedback, Options, Pros/Cons, Co$t - For Smash

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#41 ·
I personally think the Elevensix is worth the price tag. My Smash is the second bike I've had one on. I really like the idea that you keep the shock between bikes and have it set up for each new bike and you keep the shock on each new bike. First of all though, the performance is second to none. I'm a racer, so that's the first thing I look for. It is heavy, however, as any coil shock would be. The weight here is worth the performance, I believe.

My two circuits are set up as DH and Flow. I really never use the Flow mode for climbing as it isn't necessary and it climbs difficult technical sections better in DH mode. I really only use Flow mode on smoother trails up and down.
 
#42 ·
.thumper. said:
I personally think the Elevensix is worth the price tag. My Smash is the second bike I've had one on. I really like the idea that you keep the shock between bikes and have it set up for each new bike and you keep the shock on each new bike. First of all though, the performance is second to none. I'm a racer, so that's the first thing I look for. It is heavy, however, as any coil shock would be. The weight here is worth the performance, I believe.

My two circuits are set up as DH and Flow. I really never use the Flow mode for climbing as it isn't necessary and it climbs difficult technical sections better in DH mode. I really only use Flow mode on smoother trails up and down.
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I'm thinking of doing the same. Now that I have a stiffer spring on it, I don't feel the need at all to hit the switch.

What are your settings for flow and DH?
 
#43 ·
So I have been pouring through the forum to pass the time as I patiently wait for my new Smash. This is an interesting thread; a bud of mine also ordered The Smash and we had a similar delimma when spec'ing our rigs. I rode Apex on my demo out in Denver last October; S frame, Ride build with a PIke/ Super Delux setup. Nothing stellar, but MAN what a bike! Sold me right away, altough the rear shock was nothing spectacular.

After having another suspension disussion at the shop, I realized MTB riders are so averse to having their stuff reworked while nearly EVERY moto guy who is serious about riding/ racing has their stuff custom valved. We spend piles of cash on carbon uber wheels, high end drive trains, and only the finest brakes money can buy (Hope E4, thank you very much). But other than buying higher end suspension, we miss the obvious revalve work. My point? My Super Delux and Lyric are headed to DSD in Durango for a rework and custom valve to my size & riding. So why aren't more riders considering the custom valved air route? I am certain more top pro's have it done on their factory supported stuff than they advertise.
 
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#44 ·
TaylorC4 said:
So why aren't more riders considering the custom valved air route? I am certain more top pro's have it done on their factory supported stuff than they advertise.
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My Smash's RS SD Coil is booked in for a custom tune in Jan 2019. It'll be interesting to see how it rides post-tune. I'm sure pretty much every pro-rider has had their suspension tuned. Seems almost crazy for them not to.
 
#45 ·
I don't mean this as a dig on anybody but I think a lot of riders don't go the custom suspension route because it isn't tangible, they can't physically see it or show it off. Like you said a lot of riders like carbon this and that, bling, the latest and greatest, etc... Riders want to say, 'Look, I just spent 1K and have the latest and greatest new Fork'

I also think if custom tuning was more accessible and riders had a chance to try, they would change their mind on what to spend money on. The average rider keeps hearing from Fox and RS that they are riding on the best suspension money can buy. Interestingly Fox comes out with the "best ever" every year. I'm always surprised suspension tuners and companies don't have better demo programs. I would happily pay $100 for a week trying out an 11.6.

I always try to spend my money on Frame, Suspension and then Wheels.

Ive had custom tunes from Avalanche and Push in the past and always feel it is money well spent. I am going to send my SD Coil in to Avalanche after Christmas.Looking forward to the best improvements my money can buy.

TaylorC4 said:
After having another suspension disussion at the shop, I realized MTB riders are so averse to having their stuff reworked while nearly EVERY moto guy who is serious about riding/ racing has their stuff custom valved. We spend piles of cash on carbon uber wheels, high end drive trains, and only the finest brakes money can buy (Hope E4, thank you very much). But other than buying higher end suspension, we miss the obvious revalve work. My point? My Super Delux and Lyric are headed to DSD in Durango for a rework and custom valve to my size & riding. So why aren't more riders considering the custom valved air route? I am certain more top pro's have it done on their factory supported stuff than they advertise.
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#46 ·
I’m definitely game for custom tuning my suspension. It’s just a matter of who to send it to.

I’m really tempted to get my suspension tuned but I want to see what all the options are.
 
#47 ·
I think you made my point even more; I too am guilty of your scenario. Latest, greatest, off the shelf blah blah blah, carbon awesomeness. Yet EVERY moto guy I know who is serious about their racing (road, enduro, even drag) make a revalve their first priority. Granted, it's relative to those machines that are WAY better at everything else whereas in MTB we tend to buy kickass frames with room to upgrade on spec. Just an interesting thought and a KICKASS time to be a mt-biker! DSD runt and a revalve is happening ASAP with carbon wheels later down the line next year.
 
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#48 ·
Vik, after having phone conversations with 2 different suspension shops, the general gist was that ALL of them have stuff custom tuned & reworked for them. There is no way Sam Hill rides off the shelf stuff any more than Rude rides a Fox us mere mortals can buy. Curious to hear your results. My theory is a custom worked rear air shock will be 98% as good as a stock coil. Which should be totally solid for Texas trail riding & enduro racing.
 
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#49 ·
TaylorC4 said:
Curious to hear your results. My theory is a custom worked rear air shock will be 98% as good as a stock coil. Which should be totally solid for Texas trail riding & enduro racing.
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Custom tuning of the damper won't change the pros/cons of each type of spring. So I don't think you'll find both options are only 2% different, but that's not to say an air shock isn't just the ticket for the riding you want to do.
 
#50 ·
Yeah man, I hear you. I don't mean to imply any actual equality with a number, just sort of a loose analogy. We still build kinda weight conscious & most of our enduro courses in Texas are groomed with features. So poppy, air sprung with good ramp up should work just fine for what I'm doing. We run most of our enduro races in the Texas Hill Country; a region known for some rocky, steppy stuff, but it's nothing major compared to stuff out West or at elevation.
 
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#51 ·
I don't know what to ask. Main reason I haven't really considered it. My Super deluxe coil felt good. My deluxe air shock feels fine. No idea what I would say / experience with a revalve so haven't seriously considered it yet.

Probably will when **** needs it though.
 
#52 ·
I guess thats a good point as well. The bikes we buy these days are pretty bad a$$ right off the shelf.

I think the revalve/custom tune is a great option when you need your suspension serviced. For just a bit more $ you can get the rebuild and a custom tune.

Avalanche Racing has some good info on their (somewhat archaic) web site.

cassieno said:
I don't know what to ask. Main reason I haven't really considered it. My Super deluxe coil felt good. My deluxe air shock feels fine. No idea what I would say / experience with a revalve so haven't seriously considered it yet.

Probably will when **** needs it though.
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#53 ·
One other thing I noticed. Standing and pedaling feels like a huge energy suck to me on my Smash with a coil shock (in Crush some low speed compression)

Standing and pedaling with an air shock feels much more productive.
 
#54 ·
I don’t see how custom damping will change the performance that much. Damping doesn’t change spring rate, it doesn’t change geometry, it only changes damping of the coil (air or steel).

I’d just assume have springs that change in increments of 25# or a progressive spring rate
 
#55 ·
Nurse Ben said:
I don't see how custom damping will change the performance that much. Damping doesn't change spring rate, it doesn't change geometry, it only changes damping of the coil (air or steel).

I'd just assume have springs that change in increments of 25# or a progressive spring rate
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It can be pretty dramatic. Suspension is fine if you're right in the manufacturers sweet spot weight wise. If you're light, or heavy, you're going to be at the end of the adjustment range. The damping is pretty critical, after all, every bump has an effect, how hard it feels through your hands and feet, how quickly the tire regains traction etc.

I think it's very rare to ride a well sorted bike, the best example I can think of is riding one of Dougal's bikes from here when we were shuttling. He and I are similar in weight and probably riding style, but the bike was absolutely glued to the trail, it went exactly where I wanted it, it was like having super tackys on without the drag.

And that bike frame may have been ten years old with a coil fork and shock as well, but valved by him, for him. I think I'm pretty close with my Mattoc and TTX, but would love to dig that bike out again to compare.
 
#56 ·
Sorry, not buying it, damping either works or it doesn’t. I have a hard time seeing how custom damping could improve over factory. All damping does is control the rate of return, so how does customizing that rate vary significantly from the factory option available by turning a knob?

I do know that my SD Coil works better than a DB with a Valt Coil, but I suspect that is due to the coil length more than the damping.

I read about all these folks getting custom damping, spending big $$$ on an 11-6, it kinda baffles me, but maybe I’m not as picky or ???
 
#57 ·
Nurse Ben said:
Sorry, not buying it, damping either works or it doesn't. I have a hard time seeing how custom damping could improve over factory. All damping does is control the rate of return, so how does customizing that rate vary significantly from the factory option available by turning a knob?
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Damping works in compression AND rebound. So you could have a lovely soft spring on their but if the oil can't pass through the shims or orifices fast enough it will feel very harsh. Which is the problem I had on my Pike RC fork. Ultimately we removed half the compression stack to try and soften the fork, but it was still too firm. Again, a great fork for DH, but trail riding it was too firm at my weight (around 80kg) .

In theory with custom valving you would sit right in the middle of your dials, and different terrain might go a click either way. If you've got everything wide open, or fully closed it's probably not ideal. If you're in the middle, then you're probably in the sweetspot and won't benefit.
Perhaps another analogy is your steerer tube. Custom valving allows you to cut it and have a spacer either side. Stock valving gives you a full length steerer with the stem in the middle with three spacers on the top and the bottom. Great if that's where you want it, but if you want it higher or lower, you need to go custom.
 
#60 ·
cassieno said:
One other thing I noticed. Standing and pedaling feels like a huge energy suck to me on my Smash with a coil shock (in Crush some low speed compression)

Standing and pedaling with an air shock feels much more productive.
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When I got my dual coil Smash after the first ride I would have told you it was slow....maybe average in terms of speed. So I was pretty surprised to find out I was PRing climbs as well as descents and rolling terrain on it.

Bicycle Quarterly did a blind tire test a few years ago and asked the test riders if they thought they were on faster or slower tires after each run. They got it wrong almost every time.

Coils do feel totally different and that can be interpreted by your brain as slow or inefficient, but unless you are actually measuring the performance of your bike I would assume that feeling is accurate.

I had reprogram my brain on the Smash since it was clear that it was much faster up and down than it felt like with input from the suspension vs. how my air sprung bikes felt.
 
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