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Surly MidNight Special

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#81 ·
I think Surly have shot themselves in the foot a bit with the Midnight Special as they have probably killed of a lot of interest in the Pack Rat before its even hit the shops.
I really think the Pack Rat is a pretty specialised bit of kit with 650b, rim brakes and probably clearance of maximum 650 x 42 with fenders.
Thinking about the cycling circles I move in I think most, if not all would go for the Midnight Special vs Pack Rat. Disc brakes, plenty of clearance, modern hub standards and pretty versatile.
Also look on here here the Pack at thread has gone. No one has posted on there for 3 week and usually there is quite a frenzy when Surly release a new frame.
Personally I'm a rim brake, DT shifter, standard hub size kind of guy when it comes to road bikes so would probably take the Pack Rat over the MS. But hey, they are all bikes right?
 
#82 ·
Metaluna said:
I was almost at the "shut up and take my money" stage with this frame, until I read the Radavist review. I have to say, the weird dropouts are kind of killing it for me. It's like the worst of both worlds: you give up the alignment advantages of through axles (and possibly the stiffness), yet you also give up the convenience of quick release, because apparently you need some weird adapter to use QR wheels. I had a Cross Check about 10 years ago and kind of had the same reaction to that frame and those lousy semi-horizontal dropouts.

I do like the flat mount brakes though.

The 650b Bombtrack Audax looks like it would fix most of my complaints, if the bare frames ever make it to the USA.
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The biggest critique of Surly frames has been their overbuilt harsh ride in contrast to pricier options. Heck, there's a whole niche of riders that think disc-ready frames w/o thru axles are too stiff and stick to rim brakes for that reason. Fretting over the less-than-super-stiff ride that a non-thru axle that still fits the many hubs type out there is a non-issue for a bike that isn't for loaded touring. If running thru axles, this dropout system is dead simple and is only slightly more complicated if you're the guy still married to Tulio's 9mm QRs.

It just seems like a knee-jerk reaction from the Radavist's 'princess-&-the-pea' types.

For me, I can get over the unicrown as it kept the price down, but I sure wish they'd given it the fork hole for internal routing of the generator hub wire like they did on the Pack Rat; and offered the frame in a black option.
 
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#83 ·
islander said:
The biggest critique of Surly frames has been their overbuilt harsh ride in contrast to pricier options. Heck, there's a whole niche of riders that think disc-ready frames w/o thru axles are too stiff and stick to rim brakes for that reason. Fretting over the less-than-super-stiff ride that a non-thru axle that still fits the many hubs type out there is a non-issue for a bike that isn't for loaded touring. If running thru axles, this dropout system is dead simple and is only slightly more complicated if you're the guy still married to Tulio's 9mm QRs.

It just seems like a knee-jerk reaction from the Radavist's 'princess-&-the-pea' types.

For me, I can get over the unicrown as it kept the price down, but I sure wish they'd given it the fork hole for internal routing of the generator hub wire like they did on the Pack Rat; and offered the frame in a black option.
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The more I think about it, the more I'm willing to withhold final judgement until I find out exactly how the QR adapters work (mainly because I'm really pleased with their choice to use flat mount brakes). If the traditional quick release operation isn't too compromised, then I have no problem viewing this as just a standard QR bike that, as a bonus, offers a way forward if you happen to have a TA wheelset. If it's difficult though, then it becomes kind of a serious design encumbrance, especially if you take your wheel(s) off frequently.

EDIT: A closer reading of Surly's blog entry on the MS gives me the answer about the QR adapters. You use the Surly 10/12 Adapter Washers, which I guess have been available for a while. They don't look too painful to use -- you just put them on each wheel and they're held in place by the skewer. I don't think I'd want to use them on a frame that isn't designed for that kind of clamping pressure (e.g. anything carbon), though obviously it's a non-issue in this case since the frame is designed with them in mind.
 
#84 ·
Midnight Special framesets popping up for sale on UK and European websites but not sure they are available yet. Best price so far is £679 GBP. (about 950 USD) Quite competitive compared to other Surly frame prices although Pack Rat is coming in at £479 so £200 cheaper.
 
#85 ·
EssexBoyUK said:
Midnight Special framesets popping up for sale on UK and European websites but not sure they are available yet. Best price so far is £679 GBP. (about 950 USD) Quite competitive compared to other Surly frame prices although Pack Rat is coming in at £479 so £200 cheaper.
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I seriously doubt there is a large enough market for the Pack Rat and I'm not convinced Surly is the right brand to try and service it anyway, seems more like something Soma should be doing.

I'll be very surprised if this rim brake version of the Pack Rat ever sees a new model.
 
#86 ·
ColonelSanders said:
I seriously doubt there is a large enough market for the Pack Rat and I'm not convinced Surly is the right brand to try and service it anyway, seems more like something Soma should be doing.

I'll be very surprised if this rim brake version of the Pack Rat ever sees a new model.
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I totally agree. As mentioned up tread I think the Pack Rat is pretty niche. Looking at UK availability the larger 650b models aren't yet available in the UK so wonder if they are having issues sourcing certain parts (eg reasonably priced rim braked 650b rims??)
Midnight Special will have wide appeal. I know all of my brevet riding, comedy off road buddies would all probably go for that.
 
#87 ·
ColonelSanders said:
I seriously doubt there is a large enough market for the Pack Rat and I'm not convinced Surly is the right brand to try and service it anyway, seems more like something Soma should be doing.

I'll be very surprised if this rim brake version of the Pack Rat ever sees a new model.
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I have to admit, the Rat Pack kind of looks like a LHT except in 650b instead of 700c for the larger sizes. I was pretty underwhelmed.

For those looking at framesets, what wheels do you plan to buy? I can't even find decent rim brake 26" wheels. I suppose custom built is still an option as good rims are available, but in that case, why go with a heavy steel frame? No knock on Surly. I have a CC myself, but I wouldn't kit it out with custom wheels.
 
#88 ·
jeffpoulin said:
I have to admit, the Rat Pack kind of looks like a LHT except in 650b instead of 700c for the larger sizes. I was pretty underwhelmed.

For those looking at framesets, what wheels do you plan to buy? I can't even find decent rim brake 26" wheels. I suppose custom built is still an option as good rims are available, but in that case, why go with a heavy steel frame? No knock on Surly. I have a CC myself, but I wouldn't kit it out with custom wheels.
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Probably better to post in Pack Rat thread. If I were to build Pack Rat - I'd lace some cheap wheels or just get something like this, Suzue 650b Trekking and Commuting Wheelset
 
#89 ·
I ride a Disc Trucker for my brevets and I would really like to see a disc brake, low trail, 26" or 650b bike with midfork mounts for a handlebar bag. Surly really screwed the pooch with both the Midnight Special and the Pack Rat. Randonneurs are kinda retrogrouches and so the rim brakes make sense, but the mid trail fork and without the specifically located midfork eyelets makes no sense. The allroad market is saturated with mid to high trail bikes in all frame materials and those bikes are seeing all kinds of use from gravel racing to randonneuring and recreational/comfort road rides.

I'm currently using two stems to mount my handlebar bag on my disc trucker with one and the handlebar with others. In my frame size, 50 cm, 26" wheels make more sense for me in my size but for larger sizes, 650b is probably a better fit.

If I had a magic wand, I would eliminate both of these bicycles from the Surly lineup and market similar frame geometry with disc and rim brakes to cover all riders. Surly is famous for braze-ons and there is simply no explanation for why these bicycles don't come set up for a front handlebar rack from the factory. It might even make sense to offer a mid trail fork separately for those worried about the possibility of shimmy or for gravel use and/or to offer them with couplers for those of us who travel.

Surly is the perfect company to offer/sell a real randonneuring bike as a complete at the right price point. A low trail, disc brake, allroad type bike made of lightweight steel at the right price point is a hole in the market right now. It's unclear to me why they would offer these two bicycles without fully thinking it through. Either one of them with the right fork would make perfect randonneurs, but as soon as you factor in the cost of a custom fork, their price point no longer makes sense.

Until we get some common sense in this area, I'm going to continue riding my disc trucker, which is quite a bit heavier than it needs to be for what I'm using it for, but otherwise suits my needs quite well. The right disc brake bike can straddle two different wheel and tire sizes without much effort, but few are carrying panniers on a long brevet.

The allroad category covers gravel, credit card tourers, and people who live where the roads are poor in addition to randonneurs, and so there's a wide market to put these bikes in. Adding a few braze ons costs practically nothing, and if someone doesn't want the low trail fork, forks and frames could be sold separately to cover all of these riders with one frame.

I'll be riding my Disc Trucker until I can afford a custom frame, maybe from Waterford, that will eventually combine all of the features I'm looking for. It's just a big surprise to me that some of these more minor things have been overlooked when they introduced two new bikes and either one of them could have filled this niche, but instead, both missed the mark.
 
#90 ·
OK, I have to admit - MS started to grow on me. My GM order was restored thanks to help from All-City, I am still gaga for it and have all parts ready but now I can't stop thinking that I will need road-road bike to complement it :)
Still not sold on white but it does look sharp with black CF fork, may be this one? https://otsocycles.com/collections/lithic/products/lithic-hilli-fork
One thing I noticed - 68mm BSA mentioned everywhere but if you check frame sheet here https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/16804_SUR_Midnight_Special_Frame_Sheet_vF.pdf - it says 73mm.
Decisions, decision - I will wait what Salsa Jorneyman is all about (I think they supposed to reveal it next Sat) and go from there.
 
#91 ·
mongol777 said:
OK, I have to admit - MS started to grow on me. My GM order was restored thanks to help from All-City, I am still gaga for it and have all parts ready but now I can't stop thinking that I will need road-road bike to complement it :)
Still not sold on white but it does look sharp with black CF fork, may be this one? https://otsocycles.com/collections/lithic/products/lithic-hilli-fork
One thing I noticed - 68mm BSA mentioned everywhere but if you check frame sheet here https://surlybikes.com/uploads/downloads/16804_SUR_Midnight_Special_Frame_Sheet_vF.pdf - it says 73mm.
Decisions, decision - I will wait what Salsa Jorneyman is all about (I think they supposed to reveal it next Sat) and go from there.
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FWIW the white is nice. A little pearly. I can try to get a good pic later.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk
 
#92 ·
Fuzzy Dunlop01 said:
FWIW the white is nice. A little pearly. I can try to get a good pic later.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk
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Thank you - that would be great! One of my 1x1 is white and I am not very fond of its color. But it is one of the earlier frames, without tt brace so keeping it and I think I will powdercoat it at some point.
I watched this vid and white appears to be nice pearly as you say

For folks in Canada - saw MS frameset on NRG website (I believe they are distributor for QBP in Canada) and it shows as $995 (I assume CAD), http://store.nrgenterprises.com:9080/catalog/partdetail.aspx?partno=FM0234
 
#97 ·
mountaindude said:
After going for a test ride, I bought a Midnight Special. It sold me hands down. I love the quick handling, comfy ride and the paint looks great. It should pair nicely with my Krampus.

View attachment 1188656
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Congrats! It is a good looking ride!
Patiently waiting for my GM frame and will go after MS or Black Mountain Cycles (when announced) for all-road
 
#100 ·
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