29er vs. 29 plus

richwolf · Aug 8, 2017

I did the same ride, first on Ti 29er hardtail and second on Stache set up the way I want them.
Total distance of around 58 miles with around 5800 feet of climbing. Mix of pavement dirt and lots of single track.
Was up in the air about which bike to take on my next bikepacking race. 29er feels faster on the pavement climbs and certainly on the downhill paved sections. Stache feels much faster and more secure in the single track particularly when things point down.

29er Time: 6:54:11
Stache Time: 7:04:12

I used Strava so I was able to get a good read on around 17 segments.

Two times popped out at me: On a .8 mile paved climb. 29er 6:19 and Stache 7:17

Champagne Pass singletrack and chunky Downhill, the best downhill section. 29er 6:51 Stache 5:24

My pace was an all day pace with very little getting my heat rate up. 2.35 Ikon up front and 2.4 Ardent in back on the 29er. 3.0 Minion DHF up front and 3.0 Vee tire in back on the Stache. I also had my sleep gear in a front roll on the Stache (adding around 5 pounds?)

BUT I was much more tired after the ride on the Stache even though the time difference was not hugely different.

I did a 440 mile bikepack challenge on my Stache 5 rigid with the Chupacabra tires and it felt pretty fast.

However I turned my Stache into more of a trail rig with front fork, dropper post and beefier tires.

Given that my next race is only 240 miles with very little pavement and lots of single track the Stache is getting the nod mostly for it's grip, security and fun factor. When the going gets rough the Stache blows away my 29er.

Now for courses that have more fireroads, pavement and are longer then the 29er would be my pick.

brent701 · Aug 8, 2017

richwolf said:
I did the same ride, first on Ti 29er hardtail and second on Stache set up the way I want them.
Total distance of around 58 miles with around 5800 feet of climbing. Mix of pavement dirt and lots of single track.
Was up in the air about which bike to take on my next bikepacking race. 29er feels faster on the pavement climbs and certainly on the downhill paved sections. Stache feels much faster and more secure in the single track particularly when things point down.

29er Time: 6:54:11
Stache Time: 7:04:12

I used Strava so I was able to get a good read on around 17 segments.

Two times popped out at me: On a .8 mile paved climb. 29er 6:19 and Stache 7:17

Champagne Pass singletrack and chunky Downhill, the best downhill section. 29er 6:51 Stache 5:24

My pace was an all day pace with very little getting my heat rate up. 2.35 Ikon up front and 2.4 Ardent in back on the 29er. 3.0 Minion DHF up front and 3.0 Vee tire in back on the Stache. I also had my sleep gear in a front roll on the Stache (adding around 5 pounds?)

BUT I was much more tired after the ride on the Stache even though the time difference was not hugely different.

I did a 440 mile bikepack challenge on my Stache 5 rigid with the Chupacabra tires and it felt pretty fast.

However I turned my Stache into more of a trail rig with front fork, dropper post and beefier tires.

Given that my next race is only 240 miles with very little pavement and lots of single track the Stache is getting the nod mostly for it's grip, security and fun factor. When the going gets rough the Stache blows away my 29er.

Now for courses that have more fireroads, pavement and are longer then the 29er would be my pick.

thank you for this write up.

Impetus · Aug 8, 2017

richwolf said:
Two times popped out at me: On a .8 mile paved climb. 29er 6:19 and Stache 7:17

Champagne Pass singletrack and chunky Downhill, the best downhill section. 29er 6:51 Stache 5:24

BUT I was much more tired after the ride on the Stache even though the time difference was not hugely different.

Nice write-up. These time difference don't surprise me, and generally mirror my own experiences. There's definitely places where lighter wheels are as good or better than plus. On paved or firewood climbs, I seem to work harder rolling Chronicles than some of my friends on 2.25s. On techy single track, I may/may-not work a little harder, but I can clean more features and generally keep rolling better.
On anything pointed downhill, I'm generally faster than my buddies on 2.25s, and often on pace with XC FS rigs.

MrIcky · Aug 9, 2017

Nice info- wonder how different it would be on the Stache with more rolling friendly tires? Or conversely with Minions on the regular 29. I do find that paved roads are one of the weaknesses of the 29+, but if it's dirt-even fairly packed-it starts to catch up.

LyNx · Aug 9, 2017

Now, go get yourself a Ti 29+ rig and report back

Sparticus · Aug 10, 2017

Which do you choose when you aren't racing? Just curious.
=sParty

richwolf · Aug 10, 2017

Sparticus said:
Which do you choose when you aren't racing? Just curious.
=sParty

Well for me racing is a relative term. Bikepack racing is sort of what you make it. For me it is the challenge and being out there that is of most importance with speed and sleep deprivation being well down the list.
The Stache is a much superior trail bike than my 29er and that is what I ride in most off road situations. My 29er gets used a lot more for commuting, rides that involve a mix of pavement and dirt etc.
The course and how fast you want to go is going to dictate the bike and your setup. I imagine that fast folks will mostly be on 29er hardtails and full suspension bikes with light setups.

HEMIjer · Aug 10, 2017

Nice Write Up. I have been meaning to do similar experiments, bike weight aside I think the best measurement would be if you had a power meter could move from bike to bike (which I do actually). Than compare Avg power actual, weight avg power, and total work, each of these would have to be relative to time my guess is the 29+ times will be very similar for me but I will perform a lot more total work . This could be thrown off obviously for something like terrain requiring a lot of hike a bike, super light tires on the 29+, any sort of mechanical.

I have taken a similar approach to you although build likely differ net I bought my Stache used and am now for whatever reason taken a liking to it and it is slowly becoming my go to "Trail" bike because of the fun factor. I also sometimes like fact I feel more tired at end of ride compared to a FS or super light HT.
BTW; Only 10 minutes difference, I think that say you are likely a very fit skilled rider nice job! Your next "race is only 240 miles" damn man, I just have an unwritten goal to use the Stache in A NUE series race for the heck of it. I have also done some Bikepacking nothing major but am also debating in my head what Bike I should be using for some future trips/races I am looking at and should I give the Stache ago if the course is right for it.

richwolf · Aug 10, 2017

My test was not scientific by any stretch of the imagination but it did give some credence to how the two bikes feel.
I plan on taking my 3 bikes and testing them on the .8 mile paved uphill several times to get the difference in time. 29 plus vs. 29 vs. 29 with compass tire slicks which roll incredibly well.
No power meter for me. Instead I will just use a constant all day pedal effort for my tests.
This test will of course favor the slick tires then the 29er tires then my 29 plus tires.
Tires and tire pressure make a huge difference in rolling resistance performance and in traction and control performance. Bicycle quarterly has done extensive real world testing on rolling resistance for road tires finding that wider supple tires roll as good or better than narrower stiffer tires.
Schwalbe tires has also done some real world testing: https://www.mtbonline.co.za/downloads/Rolling_Resistance_Eng_illustrated.pdf
The bottom line is as the surface gets rougher then a wider tire at lower pressures performs better. On the road only a small percentage of your total effort is used to overcome rolling resistance while off pavement rougher surfaces take a lot more effort to overcome rolling resistance.
I am pretty certain my Stache rolled better with the Chupacabras vs. the Minions but don't offer the same traction and control. Stiff sidewalls will slow you down since the tire doesn't roll as well as more supple sidewalls. But then you start losing control and puncture protection.

bikeny · Aug 11, 2017

Interesting, but doesn't really tell you anything. You had much faster rolling tires on the 29er, and then you added extra weight to the front of the 29+. If you didn't add the front roll and used the Chuppacabras, the results would be more useful.

*OneSpeed* · Aug 11, 2017

richwolf said:
2.35 Ikon up front and 2.4 Ardent in back on the 29er.

Am I the only one who noticed he has a more aggressive tire in the rear? Try switching your tires, it will roll faster and have more grip in corners and when your pointed downhill. That's how you have the Stache set up, why do you do the opposite with the 29er?

richwolf · Aug 11, 2017

bikeny said:
Interesting, but doesn't really tell you anything. You had much faster rolling tires on the 29er, and then you added extra weight to the front of the 29+. If you didn't add the front roll and used the Chuppacabras, the results would be more useful.

Like I stated earlier the bikes are set up the way I want them. The roll up front added some weight but I like to test out my gear and how it stays on the bike.
Why put on Chuppas when I have already been down that road and I like the grip of the Minion up front? I even had my Stache set up rigid initially and although it worked surprisingly well it just screamed for a front fork, dropper post and more grip up front, so that is how I finally set it up.
Hey I could change the bikes up a bunch but how would that be a useful comparison for me when I wouldn't ride them in that configuration?

richwolf · Aug 11, 2017

*OneSpeed* said:
Am I the only one who noticed he has a more aggressive tire in the rear? Try switching your tires, it will roll faster and have more grip in corners and when your pointed downhill. That's how you have the Stache set up, why do you do the opposite with the 29er?

Because I don't like the way the Ardent transitions into a turn up front. And the difference between tire sizes in not very great. But hey you could test out the two tires, switch them out and get back to us on the differences! Ha ha!
Again we could nitpick the heck out of my test or any test for that matter. I tried to put the same ride on my two bikes set up the way I like them and used some Strava segments to compare.
I always know where these comparison tests are going to go and people's responses to them but hey it is what it is.

bikeny · Aug 11, 2017

richwolf said:
Like I stated earlier the bikes are set up the way I want them. The roll up front added some weight but I like to test out my gear and how it stays on the bike.
Why put on Chuppas when I have already been down that road and I like the grip of the Minion up front? I even had my Stache set up rigid initially and although it worked surprisingly well it just screamed for a front fork, dropper post and more grip up front, so that is how I finally set it up.
Hey I could change the bikes up a bunch but how would that be a useful comparison for me when I wouldn't ride them in that configuration?

That's fine that you like them that way, but they are set up so differently, it doesn't really tell you much. You say you like the grippy 3.0 Maxxis tire up front, fine, but then why the much faster and less grippy Ikon on the other bike? And why only mount the front roll on the Plus bike and not both bikes?

bitflogger · Aug 11, 2017

Thank you. I'm not a racer or bike packer but this interests me because I have a frame that accommodates plus tires and with test rides of different bikes went with 29 and fat tires across different bikes when I thought I wanted plus.

I hope that's not taken as my being for or against one type. I'm probably the person some grouchy people hate. I love that we have so many product choices and that some new standards do have things to offer.

richwolf · Aug 11, 2017

bikeny said:
That's fine that you like them that way, but they are set up so differently, it doesn't really tell you much. You say you like the grippy 3.0 Maxxis tire up front, fine, but then why the much faster and less grippy Ikon on the other bike? And why only mount the front roll on the Plus bike and not both bikes?

It tells a lot since they are set up so differently! That was the whole point of my comparison. To take two bikes that are set up the way that I want them and compare.

Please do a test of the Ikon and Ardent and switch them up and let me know how great of difference there is? 1 percent? 10 percent? I have had the ardent up front and didn't like the way it handled. I also think the rolling resistance difference between the two tires is minimal

As far as the roll is concerned I didn't go into the comparison expecting to do a comparison until I finished my second ride on the same course.

If you want more science than I gave it, give it a go yourself!

richwolf · Aug 11, 2017

bitflogger said:
Thank you. I'm not a racer or bike packer but this interests me because I have a frame that accommodates plus tires and with test rides of different bikes went with 29 and fat tires across different bikes when I thought I wanted plus.

I hope that's not taken as my being for or against one type. I'm probably the person some grouchy people hate. I love that we have so many product choices and that some new standards do have things to offer.

Plus ain't for everyone that is for sure. For my trails fat bike tires take up too much room and don't allow me the precision to ride the way I want. AND the plus tire still gives me the handling I want and so much more grip than a standard 29er. When I am on our rocky singletrack in perfect temps riding with the boys and I am just flying along and putting in huge chunks of distance between me and the normal bikes you can't help but grin! Of course my friend bought into 29 plus so I now have company!

MrIcky · Aug 11, 2017

richwolf said:
Because I don't like the way the Ardent transitions into a turn up front. And the difference between tire sizes in not very great. But hey you could test out the two tires, switch them out and get back to us on the differences! Ha ha!
Again we could nitpick the heck out of my test or any test for that matter. I tried to put the same ride on my two bikes set up the way I like them and used some Strava segments to compare.
I always know where these comparison tests are going to go and people's responses to them but hey it is what it is.

I appreciate this and I know you never sold your test as science. I think one thing that you can fairly glean from this is that even with a slightly unfavorable set up for climbing on the 29+, the difference still only worked out to about 2 percent. If you optimized it would be less than 1% different which is in the realm of "it only matters if you're racing for money"

richwolf · Sep 29, 2017

Well back at it again! Next event is a 295 mile one with around 28,000 feet of climb. Pavement, dirt road, lots of single track and desert sand.
Knew that the stache with the 3 inch minion up front and vee in back were probably not the ticket. Pretty much decided on my Ti 29er but hated to give up the off road capabilities and sand advantage of the Stache.
Did timed tests up a .8 mile paved road and timed test down.
Ti bike 2.35 ikon up front and 2.4 ardent in the rear
Stache 3.0 minion dhf up front and 3.0 vee tire in back
Ti bike uphill 6:23 and then 6:28
Ti bike downhill 1:59 and 2:03
Stache uphill 6:40 and 6:39
Stache downhill 1:58 and 2:05

Ti felt faster and smoother but the stache was just as fast on the coast downhill.

I ordered some new Addix Nobby Nics in 2.6 and mounted them on my Stache. Almost 2.7 inch at the casing. Felt good but not quite as capable in the real chunk. Felt better rolling.
Tested on the same hill today:
Uphill 6:25 and 6:20
Downhill 1:55

So the Stache will be my bike choice with the Nobby nic 2.6 inch tires for the event.

alexbn921 · Sep 29, 2017

29x2.6 nobby nic tires are great fast tires, even if they don't have the outright grip of a DHF. You will be faster overall and the casing is true to size.

29er vs. 29 plus

richwolf

brent701

Impetus

MrIcky

LyNx

Sparticus

richwolf

HEMIjer

richwolf

bikeny

OneSpeed

richwolf

richwolf

bikeny

bitflogger

richwolf

richwolf

MrIcky

richwolf

alexbn921

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