XC racing on a hardtail with 120 mm fork?

bob13bob · May 18, 2017

imo, get the marvel pro
http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/xc-fork-hardtail-1044411.html

dplevy81 · May 26, 2017

FJSnoozer said:
For something light enough and stiff try the Manitou marvel pro 15MM in 120. I blast it through extremely hairy rocky terrain and don't have the braking flex and "tuck under" of the Sids I own. The lockout is a true lockout and you can go backto your rigid ride any time you wish. Damping and tuning exceeds that of the SID.

for shenanigans and fun, you can try a 120mm pike if you are the kind of rider that will not lockout the fork. The dial is easy to manipulate while riding. Its one of the best forks out there and is not THAT heavy at around 1850 for the 120 from what I have seen. SIDs aren't realistically coming in a pound under that.

With all that said, I am considering ditching my SID from the hardtail, moving my marvel pro to the XTC hardtail and Piking my Anthem to make it essentially an SX. I'm not sure yet...

The marvel pro what I have on my Niner Air 9. I picked up a 120mm because it was about $200 cheaper than the 100mm for some reason, despite being the EXACT same fork with the EXACT same internals. You flip an internal spacer and it drops down to 100mm. I've run it both ways and its just as stiff in both configurations. Seriously the best fork ive ever ridden. Surprised they dont have a more loyal following like Fox and Rock Shox.

ashwinearl · May 27, 2017

dplevy81 said:
The marvel pro what I have on my Niner Air 9. I picked up a 120mm because it was about $200 cheaper than the 100mm for some reason, despite being the EXACT same fork with the EXACT same internals. You flip an internal spacer and it drops down to 100mm. I've run it both ways and its just as stiff in both configurations. Seriously the best fork ive ever ridden. Surprised they dont have a more loyal following like Fox and Rock Shox.

Just a note for others thinking of doing the same. I bought a 100mm Marvel OEM takeoff hoping to change the travel to 120. Turns out that some Marvels for the OEM market are not travel adjustable per the manual.

Also the Manitou is very easy to tweak and customize using their 'recipe book' guide on shim tuning. There is good info on some threads in the suspension forum.

Silent Drone · May 29, 2017

I recently installed the new SID WC on my Air 9 RDO. It's nice and light at 1399 grams and the 100 mm works well. It's also plenty stiff for me. I don't get this trend toward slacker geometry. I love the way this frame with its 71 degree HT and fork handle. It was considered state of the art only a few years ago.

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aussie_yeti · May 29, 2017

great weight! I'm getting one. That charge damper in the Pike is amazing. Hopefully equally as good on the SID

LaneDetroitCity · May 29, 2017

ohmygato said:
I did a little more research this morning and I guess somehow I overlooked that the SID 29er is 27.5+ compatible. Is that correct? If so that is most likely the direction I will go since I had a SID many years ago and was very happy with it.

I definitely don't need 120 mm and I don't need beefy stanchions. At around 150 lbs. and 6'2" pretty much anything I get on feels ultra stiff and set up for someone who is 50 lbs. heavier. I feel the same way that 120 mm would be a bit of a waste for my style of riding plus I tend to prefer the steeper HA the 100 mm sets up at.

Yes. Friend has giant xtc with sid world cup and 27.5+. He sold the stepcast that came on it just to put 27.5+ and 100mm.

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Silent Drone · May 29, 2017

LaneDetroitCity said:
Yes. Friend has giant xtc with sid world cup and 27.5+. He sold the stepcast that came on it just to put 27.5+ and 100mm.

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I think maybe what matters for compatibility is whether the SID WC is boost or not. The 29er boost version should be able to also handle a 27.5+. The non-boost version is narrower.

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ohmygato · May 30, 2017

Silent Drone said:
I think maybe what matters for compatibility is whether the SID WC is boost or not. The 29er boost version should be able to also handle a 27.5+. The non-boost version is narrower.
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I heard the SID boost is the same as the REBA boost but with a carboner steering pipe, in which case it will fit 27.5+.

LaneDetroitCity · May 30, 2017

ohmygato said:
I heard the SID boost is the same as the REBA boost but with a carboner steering pipe, in which case it will fit 27.5+.

Any rockshox boost fork will fit 27.5+, 29, 29+. Any. Fork. Thats. Boost.

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ohmygato · May 30, 2017

Okay guys, a couple more bonehead front suspension questions for you...

I ended up getting the XTC Advanced + 2 which has the REBA 120 mm fork on it. I went with this one as opposed to the Advanced 29er 0 or SS because it had the easiest upgrade path and best "out of box" options for what I want to do with it. The surprising thing is I actually really LIKE the 120 mm and I have been able to get the full travel out of it without bottoming out. It's probably just such a dramatic difference from riding rigid that I am in love with it right now, but I feel like I'm starting to see the light, and that light is the silhouette around a big ol' front boinger.

So here are my questions:
1. If I am using the full 120 mm travel and I like the geometry it sets me up at, is there any reason to go to 100 mm aside from potential weight savings of a more spindly fork?
2. I would say the one thing I really don't like about it compared to rigid is that it never fully locks out and I can really feel it when standing on the climbs, especially when I go from seated to standing. Is this the way all suspension forks work? I feel like an older Fox that I had wasn't quite as bad. Is there a way to get them to be more locked when they are set at the highest compression damping setting?

LaneDetroitCity · May 30, 2017

ohmygato said:
Okay guys, a couple more bonehead front suspension questions for you...

I ended up getting the XTC Advanced + 2 which has the REBA 120 mm fork on it. I went with this one as opposed to the Advanced 29er 0 or SS because it had the easiest upgrade path and best "out of box" options for what I want to do with it. The surprising thing is I actually really LIKE the 120 mm and I have been able to get the full travel out of it without bottoming out. It's probably just such a dramatic difference from riding rigid that I am in love with it right now, but I feel like I'm starting to see the light, and that light is the silhouette around a big ol' front boinger.

So here are my questions:
1. If I am using the full 120 mm travel and I like the geometry it sets me up at, is there any reason to go to 100 mm aside from potential weight savings of a more spindly fork?
2. I would say the one thing I really don't like about it compared to rigid is that it never fully locks out and I can really feel it when standing on the climbs, especially when I go from seated to standing. Is this the way all suspension forks work? I feel like an older Fox that I had wasn't quite as bad. Is there a way to get them to be more locked when they are set at the highest compression damping setting?

They weigh the same. Reba 120 and 100. A sid is lighter but only 100mm. And lighter by 200 grams maybe.

The only real lockout is the sid world cup with the charger damper. All the others are "firm". Rebas, fox that is. Manitou has a real lockout also.

Just ride your bike. As is. Youre overthinking it. Big time.

Edit...you can also put the charger damper from the sid in the reba and get a real lockout. Thats all i would do. And ride the bike

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ohmygato · May 30, 2017

LaneDetroitCity said:
They weigh the same. Reba 120 and 100. A sid is lighter but only 100mm. And lighter by 200 grams maybe.

The only real lockout is the sid world cup with the charger damper. All the others are "firm". Rebas, fox that is. Manitou has a real lockout also.

Just ride your bike. As is. Youre overthinking it. Big time.

Edit...you can also put the charger damper from the sid in the reba and get a real lockout. Thats all i would do. And ride the bike

Got it - thank you and that all makes sense.

LaneDetroitCity · May 30, 2017

ohmygato said:
Got it - thank you and that all makes sense.

Someone local races the xtc with 27.5+ and the sid wc and SS. Hes the fastest guy around. I had an extensive talk at the last race with him about this whole situation. He bought the 29er 2 with the stepcast and wanted to use the 27.5+ as a toy. He put the sid on thinking 29er and then when he tried out 27.5+ it was game over. The tires are the same weight and more traction. Hes like 135 though so the heavier guys have to run a bit more air so they dont roll the tire and most of the time they are using too skinny of a rim anyways so they dont truly get to see the light. For ss where momentum is key you have literally the best setup. Traction. Tires and suspension. I used to be all about rigid. Yes it climbs faster. However only on smooth stuff. If you can keep the wheel on the ground climbing vs manipulating the front of the bike on every climb it balances out. Plus you get used to that little "bob" and learn to set a rythmn to it and just work with it as it does its thing. At first it will always feel the opposite of what you are used to it will be coming down as you want to pull up on the bars and going up as you want to put weight on the bars to keep tire planted. But once you get that rythmn of pushing it down to make it pop up vs jerking the bars up youll never go back. Because other than climbing its a no brainer. Tje traction you can take into corners is not even in the same dimension as rigid. Just lay it out and any tire movement is absorbed by the suspension and just when you think you are going to wash out the fork does its thing and away you go. It takes getting used because for so long you have ridden worrying about whats directly in front of the tire first then up ahead second. Thats because rigid you may have to body english the front end at any moment in a corner. With suspension you can loom farther ahead and see your lines sooner and trust them more. Youre eyes will be more upright and diagnosing whats ahead faster. Knowing once you take a certain line you are planted in that line. With all the new tech its not like before where you had to choose rigid or a piece of crap fork.

I am going to do exactly as i suggested to you and put the charger damper in a reba so its a tad bit stiffer than a sid, lighter than a fox 34, fits 27+,29,29+, and is adjustable travel.

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ohmygato · May 30, 2017

LaneDetroitCity said:
Someone local races the xtc with 27.5+ and the sid wc and SS. Hes the fastest guy around. I had an extensive talk at the last race with him about this whole situation. He bought the 29er 2 with the stepcast and wanted to use the 27.5+ as a toy. He put the sid on thinking 29er and then when he tried out 27.5+ it was game over. The tires are the same weight and more traction. Hes like 135 though so the heavier guys have to run a bit more air so they dont roll the tire and most of the time they are using too skinny of a rim anyways so they dont truly get to see the light. For ss where momentum is key you have literally the best setup. Traction. Tires and suspension.

After one ride on the 27.5+ tires I was having second thoughts about going back to 29. I set multiple PRs on descents without even trying. Plus on climbs I was only 2-4% off my PRs. There are some sections of climbs where the + tires excel like when it gets really bumpy, rooty, or there is a lot of sand/gravel. There was a short rooty section I literally could not make on my 29er rigid. I plowed full force into it on the 27.5+ wheels and it was like there was nothing there. In the turns there's no contest. I do still think the advantage goes to 29er skinnies on relatively smooth and extended climbs and there are a lot of those around here. But if the bulk of my climbing was anything bumpy or bad traction I would almost definitely go 27.5+ now. Like when I take this thing out to Tucson or Moab or even to a spot with unknown terrain it is going to be 27.5+ for sure.

There is a guy here who rides a behemoth of a rigid fat tire bike as expert SS and he actually does pretty good with it. I always wondered how the hell he was competitive with it but now I get it... survive the climbs and attack the descents and turns like they don't even exist.

If you're interested there's a guy on YouTube named Clint Gibbs who is doing a really thorough video series on his experimentation with the XTC Advanced. 27.5+ vs. 29, how it stacks up as an XC bike vs. Trail bike, etc.

The 135 lb. 27.5+ guy you race with... what tire pressures and rim width does he run? I'm at 18 psi rear, 16 psi front and that might be too high but I did have a rim strike at 16 psi in the rear so I went up. Maybe rim strikes are to be expected? Also I'm using a 35 mm rim.

Silent Drone · May 30, 2017

ohmygato said:
Okay guys, a couple more bonehead front suspension questions for you...

I ended up getting the XTC Advanced + 2 which has the REBA 120 mm fork on it. I went with this one as opposed to the Advanced 29er 0 or SS because it had the easiest upgrade path and best "out of box" options for what I want to do with it. The surprising thing is I actually really LIKE the 120 mm and I have been able to get the full travel out of it without bottoming out. It's probably just such a dramatic difference from riding rigid that I am in love with it right now, but I feel like I'm starting to see the light, and that light is the silhouette around a big ol' front boinger.

So here are my questions:
1. If I am using the full 120 mm travel and I like the geometry it sets me up at, is there any reason to go to 100 mm aside from potential weight savings of a more spindly fork?
2. I would say the one thing I really don't like about it compared to rigid is that it never fully locks out and I can really feel it when standing on the climbs, especially when I go from seated to standing. Is this the way all suspension forks work? I feel like an older Fox that I had wasn't quite as bad. Is there a way to get them to be more locked when they are set at the highest compression damping setting?

My new Sid WC is rock solid when locked out. Much different than the old Reba it replaced that was squishy but firm when locked out. That plus being a weight weenie is why I got it instead of a rigid fork.

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coke · Jun 2, 2017

ohmygato said:
Okay guys, a couple more bonehead front suspension questions for you...

So here are my questions:

2. I would say the one thing I really don't like about it compared to rigid is that it never fully locks out and I can really feel it when standing on the climbs, especially when I go from seated to standing. Is this the way all suspension forks work? I feel like an older Fox that I had wasn't quite as bad. Is there a way to get them to be more locked when they are set at the highest compression damping setting?

Try adjusting your climbing position so that you're standing up a little more and have more weight on the rear of the bike. I'm not an expert by any means, but I've found climbing out of the saddle on hardtails and rigid bikes require a slightly different technique. Basically try to keep your weight off the bars, and fork bob won't be much of an issue.

Not all forks feel the same locked out. My fox 34 feels almost rigid, but the recent rockshox I've had didn't feel nearly as firm.

XC racing on a hardtail with 120 mm fork?

bob13bob

dplevy81

ashwinearl

Silent Drone

aussie_yeti

LaneDetroitCity

Silent Drone

ohmygato

LaneDetroitCity

ohmygato

LaneDetroitCity

ohmygato

LaneDetroitCity

ohmygato

Silent Drone

coke

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