Classic Steel bikes, which tubing is better. (Steel lovers only)

Cmonster · Oct 27, 2005

I miss the good days of good steel mountain bikes. I have two mountain bikes, but one of them is a steel hardtail - Rocky Mountain Blizzard (93) with True Temper OX 3 main tubes and OX 2 rear stays.
These days its harder to get good steel framed bicycles. There is only a few mass production companies such as Jamis and Rocky make steel frame bikes. Smaller custom frame shops are taking advantage of this void because majority of every mass producer outhere is using aluminum or space age materials to make frames. I like lightweight steel because its more cost effective than titanium and stronger/longivity than aluminum.

What good steel tubing would make an excellent classic steel frame with today's modern steel tubing.

Reynolds standard or air harden tubing
True Temper standard or air harden tubing
Columbus tubing
Dedacciai
Tange (They are still around) www.tange-design.com

What's your opinion and its for steel levers only.

laffeaux · Oct 27, 2005

As long as the guy holding the right end of the welding torch knows what he's doing, they'd all be just fine.

Rumpfy · Oct 27, 2005

I'm a True Temper guy.

My Slingshots are all OXII.

vdubbusrider · Oct 27, 2005

True Temper is my Fav. you can't beat good clean seamless steel. it really is a class above even though True Temper is owned by Huffy believe it or not. and they started as a yard tool company.

shiggy · Oct 27, 2005

laffeaux said:
As long as the guy holding the right end of the welding torch knows what he's doing, they'd all be just fine.

Agreed. It is how the material is used. All of the steel listed is available in many sizes so the builder can pick what works best for the specific frame. I know of several custom frame builders that use tubes from 3-4 different manufacturers in a single frame.

My long-awaited-frame-that-is-still-in-the-paint-shop uses (at least) two different types of Tange Prestige, True Temper and unbranded 4130 tubing.

shiggy · Oct 27, 2005

vdubbusrider said:
True Temper is my Fav. you can't beat good clean seamless steel. it really is a class above even though True Temper is owned by Huffy believe it or not. and they started as a yard tool company.

True Temper tubing is not, and never has been, seamless. The steel sheet is butted, rolled, welded into a tube and cold worked to integrate the seam.

vdubbusrider · Oct 27, 2005

ah, i see. just going by what different frame builders told me.

loonyOne · Oct 27, 2005

I really think that the brand has nothing to do with which steel alloy is 'better' than this or that. It is by pure craftsmanship AND choice of the proper tubing alloy for the application. I'm sure that no one here, or anywhere else for that matter, will deny the tubing choice or craftsmanship of the Bontrager frames. The only factor in that would be the craftsmanship of the Privateer line, which lacked the moxie that KB (and his in-house welders) put into the frames.
My good friend has a Teesdale with some very extravagant, custom geometry. He had TET build it with 100% 853. Some say 853 is too flexy for an entire frame, yet, at about a deuce and a quarter, he feels no flex. Teesdale is no stranger to the flame, and has the know-how to put the proper sized tubing with a given application...as most custom builders probably do. THAT is what is most important when a frame builder employs either the TIG welder, and/or the silver solder and lugs to create what we all love to see...craftsmanship.
My 'new' DeKerf was built with Reynold's 631, a precursor to 853...does that make it less of a steel alloy than the almighty 853, Tange Infinity Prestige, TrueTemper OXIII, Columbus, Focus, and so on (because I really don't know how long the list is)?? Nope. A good frame builder will tell the customer what will ride and feel good, and what won't.

Fillet-brazed · Oct 27, 2005

shiggy said:
Agreed. It is how the material is used. All of the steel listed is available in many sizes so the builder can pick what works best for the specific frame. I know of several custom frame builders that use tubes from 3-4 different manufacturers in a single frame.

My long-awaited-frame-that-is-still-in-the-paint-shop uses (at least) two different types of Tange Prestige, True Temper and unbranded 4130 tubing.

yep, there are several brands of good high quality tubing and each has its own characteristics, strengths, etc. It takes a knowledgable frame builder to match those to a rider and get something that feels good and right.

There are a lot of variables that effect the ride of a steel frame. Frame size comes into play, the weight of the rider, how hard the rider rides, etc. Its a matter of finding that nice blend or balance. Light guage steel has a nice lively feel to it, some of the early mtbs with their heavy guage tubing felt pretty darn dead. If you were to take a 15" production frame with a 125 pound rider, it will obviously not feel any where close to the 215 pound guy's bike who purchases this same brand in a size 22. Its flexier because of the added weight/horsepower, but also because its structurally weaker and more flexy due to the longer tubes. Anyway, like the others have said, ideally you have a builder build you something that is right for you and your style, size, etc.

That said, my favorite steel bike by far has oversize Ritchey Logic Prestige and was put together by Steve Potts. It has a really great feel. It wasnt custom for me (just a stock Phoenix), but I think I just lucked out on a perfect tube selection and layout. Thats my $.02 anyway.

Jeroen · Oct 27, 2005

True Temper is all seamed tubing, same as the 'new' Reynolds 953 tubeset that supposed to defy the limits of current steels, that are mostly all seamless.

Numbers are nice to know and to compare, but they mean nothing without the geometry of the tube it is used in. The overall caracteristics of a frame, is completely depended on the combination of material caracteristics and the profile these caracterestics are used in. So in a word, nobody can make a good comparison between just 'plain' numbers when there is nothing mentioned about the shape it'll be used in. Its tied together and does nothing without each other.

DWF · Oct 27, 2005

shiggy said:
True Temper tubing is not, and never has been, seamless. The steel sheet is butted, rolled, welded into a tube and cold worked to integrate the seam.

True Temper shifted to seamless when they started making S3. I think they've converted all their major lines to seamless now.

DWF · Oct 27, 2005

Cmonster said:
I miss the good days of good steel mountain bikes. I have two mountain bikes, but one of them is a steel hardtail - Rocky Mountain Blizzard (93) with True Temper OX 3 main tubes and OX 2 rear stays.
These days its harder to get good steel framed bicycles. There is only a few mass production companies such as Jamis and Rocky make steel frame bikes. Smaller custom frame shops are taking advantage of this void because majority of every mass producer outhere is using aluminum or space age materials to make frames. I like lightweight steel because its more cost effective than titanium and stronger/longivity than aluminum.

What good steel tubing would make an excellent classic steel frame with today's modern steel tubing.

Reynolds standard or air harden tubing
True Temper standard or air harden tubing
Columbus tubing
Dedacciai
Tange (They are still around) www.tange-design.com

What's your opinion and its for steel levers only.

Best classic steel tubeset ever built into MTBs frames was Columbus MAX OR. No arguing. Just accept it.

As far as modern steel tubing, Columbus MAX. No arguing. Just accept it.

Fluffbomb · Oct 27, 2005

Ritchey Logic Tubing

All my steel bikes have been production bikes but my favourite steel bike that I've owned was a RM Blizzard made from Ritchey Logic tubing. Far more springy and comfortable than my Columbus MAX OR Explosif (although I think the back end is just plain chromoly). I had an Explosif made from a mix of Tange tubing (Prestige Concept, Ultimate Ultralite & Ultimate Ultrastrong) with a ribbed downtube. Very light but it cracked after a couple of years.

I often wonder what the old Yeti's (Ultimate & FRO) ride like as they're pretty hefty and I assume use quite thick wall tubing. Thicker walled tubing typically results in a harsher deader ride, are the old Yeti's like this? Maybe Scant will let me take his FRO out for a spin!

Cheers,

Fluff

scant · Oct 27, 2005

you gotta remeber fluff john parker was into overbuilding, (yes they still cracked!) espically compared to the light ritcheys of the time. 1990 FROs weigh like 6lbs! I've ridden older steel fros & they always felt solid & stable (& yes slightly heavier) to me, although the merits of frame compliance have been discussed before, more compliance in the tyres etc.

You're never riding 1 of my bikes again fluff after dropping my old FAT ti outside my flat ;D my first king headset & you scuffed it up after 1 days ownership.. that spolit my day dude

I'm glad the merits of seamed Vs seamless havent been raised again. Aerospace have been using seamed tubing for years.

Yeolde retrogeek (Bri) is close to finishing his steve potts & I look forward to a quick ride on it. certainly 1 of the nicest finished frames I've seen.

smoothest riding steel frame I've tried was an early 90s UK Zinn frame. UK readership will remeber those. rocket ships to ride, the amount that cracked probs being related to the smooth ride..

TraumaARNP · Oct 27, 2005

Ritchey *** Tange Prestige

Have a KHS Montana bought in '91 that used Ritchey/Tange Prestige tubing...used the bike for 6 months, and decided to retire the frame into my "hall of Fame"...never did like the blue and pink color scheme, but she is probably my most sought after frame by many in my club.

WTB-rider · Oct 27, 2005

Fluffbomb said:
I often wonder what the old Yeti's (Ultimate & FRO) ride like as they're pretty hefty and I assume use quite thick wall tubing. Thicker walled tubing typically results in a harsher deader ride, are the old Yeti's like this? Maybe Scant will let me take his FRO out for a spin!

Fluff

I believe the old FRO's were built from straight guage 4130.

Rody · Oct 27, 2005

Steel is still King....

Gotta admit, I prefer to build out of steel. One of the greatest advantages is the diversity of the specs that are available and the characteristics of each. Rarely do I build an entire frame out of one manufacturers product, instead, choosing the pieces that will best reflect the intended riding application, the expected weight vs. longevity, and finally the "feel" the customer is looking to achieve.

Aluminum sets tend to be very cookie cutter ,Ti is great but sourcing and price is starting to be a pain in the booty, manufactured carbon sets remind me of building models when I was a kid...all of them take a back seat to the ability to create a unique ride, both in design and resultant feel, out of steel.

cheers,

rody

edouble · Oct 27, 2005

ive owned...

steel frames made of 853, oxII, tange ultimate prestige and ritchey"s tange prestige, and ox platinum. i think they're all excellent, but im impressed most with the tange stuff. simply because it rides as good and is almost as light as the newer high end steels. the ox platinum is awesome because you can build an entire frame from it. something you cant do with 853. its definately true that its more important what you do with steel, not which steel you use.

Eastcoaster · Oct 28, 2005

My Smor was 853...my EWR is CroMO....

My Smorgasbord was 853. Monostay design with the actual seat stays being S bend. Breezer drops. Nice ride. Big ups to Chris Daily who started Smorgasbord. Anyone know about them? Wished the company woul've worked out. Yes, I'll use the words...springy, smooth....it was. NOW, I ride a Grove built EWR Orig. Woods Bike frame. CroMo. Breezer drops. Thought that the oversized main tubes, "lesser" quality steel and compact rear triangle were going to mean a stiff, brutal feel to me on the saddle out here on my rock strewn, rooty PA trails. It rides like a dream for all of my trail riding sessions.
Isn't that the reason why we all like steel though? The possibilities are ENDLESS! Mix and match diff. tubing. What one builder can do with it vs. another. Geometry diff. mixed in. It's what makes our addiction to this stuff so cool.

uphiller · Oct 28, 2005

I, too have one of those KHS Montana Teams with the blue and pink paint, it accelerates very nicely without any kind of annoying wind-up or flex. And the rigid fork rides smoothly, too, without giving up too much steering precision. Rithcey Logic tubing is one of my faves, judging from my experience with that bike.
My current ride is a Tom Teesdale built out of a mix of OX-Platinum and 853, and 4130 seatstays built to stand up to some trials-type back wheel moves with a rear disc brake. He was also able to build the frame with 16" chainstays, and still fit a Tioga 2.3" Factory DH tire. Frame weight is just over 4lbs for a 15" seat tube. Frankly it rides a little flexier than I'd like, but the ride is super smooth so I can't really complain. If I get another frame, prolly a 29er, it'll likely be steel, but maybe with a stiffer spec.
Tim

Classic Steel bikes, which tubing is better. (Steel lovers only)

Cmonster

laffeaux

Rumpfy

vdubbusrider

shiggy

shiggy

vdubbusrider

loonyOne

Fillet-brazed

Jeroen

DWF

DWF

Fluffbomb

scant

TraumaARNP

WTB-rider

Rody

edouble

Eastcoaster

uphiller

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