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Discussion starter · #81 ·
Philly & the IMBA

I get the desire to do your own thing, but it takes 3 years for a trail to get cleared and everything is fine as is?
I'm not complaining or criticizing, just sayin'.
Also, I think some organization to counteract the influence of the horse people around here would be a real good thing.
 
My problem is that for the most part, all the new trails being built in the Wiss are walking trails -not even hiking trails. From the Meadows, to the new trails around kitchens lane. Just smooth walking trails.
I completely agree with this and it really bums me out. Just look at the trails being built on the Roxborough side in the last few months. I understand the areas that are being rerouted and redone have generally suffered from washout and poor drainage, but a lot of challenging sections in recent years are being replaced with completely smooth trail with not a rock or root in sight.

Funny how I started riding a much rocker wiss with a 26" full rigid Rockhopper and now I'm sporting a 5" travel wonder bike to ride smooth trail. No wonder my skills keep getting worse :D

And for the record, I haven't participated in much trail maintenance so I don't have a leg to stand on, but I give a good chunk of change to the FOW every year which entitles me to complain on the internet occasionally :).
 
most of the new trails seem smooth because they are brand new and need to be made sustainably and accommodate all user groups (for example; horse people generally are not fans of rocky trails; from what i hear).

more mountain bikers out helping on trail days would probably lead to more mountain bike friendly features on the trails.

that said give the new trails a few years; they are plenty smooth on top but are built with plenty of rock. i bet all the old technical trails you were used to riding started life as wide boring trails then erosion happened. this will happen to a certain extent on new trails as well.

finally; not to pick on you JD but why do you need a 5" travel bike for the wiss? I ride the wiss exclusively on a rigid singlespeed (it is just what i have and i can only afford one bike). without any gears or suspension you get TONS of extra challenge. if your trails are getting less technical maybe your bikes should follow suit?

that said i don't think the wiss is any less tech than it has been; there are just lots of new trails; these trails will develop "character" over time.
 
that said give the new trails a few years; they are plenty smooth on top but are built with plenty of rock. i bet all the old technical trails you were used to riding started life as wide boring trails then erosion happened. this will happen to a certain extent on new trails as well.

finally; not to pick on you JD but why do you need a 5" travel bike for the wiss? I ride the wiss exclusively on a rigid singlespeed (it is just what i have and i can only afford one bike). without any gears or suspension you get TONS of extra challenge. if your trails are getting less technical maybe your bikes should follow suit?
Hope you're right, perhaps the new trails will get more technical over time...we'll see.

As for the 5" travel bike, I knew that was gonna draw some comments; it was said partly tongue and cheek...it's a 4" travel bike :)

Also, up until recently I was exclusively onboard with the full rigid, single speed thing and still use that bike for belmont. But for wiss, I'm afraid my knees, wrists and back need a break. Plus I find full suspension playful in a way that rigid bikes aren't, just need to find more rocks!
 
most of the new trails seem smooth because they are brand new and need to be made sustainably and accommodate all user groups (for example; horse people generally are not fans of rocky trails; from what i hear).

more mountain bikers out helping on trail days would probably lead to more mountain bike friendly features on the trails.

that said give the new trails a few years; they are plenty smooth on top but are built with plenty of rock. i bet all the old technical trails you were used to riding started life as wide boring trails then erosion happened. this will happen to a certain extent on new trails as well.

finally; not to pick on you JD but why do you need a 5" travel bike for the wiss? I ride the wiss exclusively on a rigid singlespeed (it is just what i have and i can only afford one bike). without any gears or suspension you get TONS of extra challenge. if your trails are getting less technical maybe your bikes should follow suit?

that said i don't think the wiss is any less tech than it has been; there are just lots of new trails; these trails will develop "character" over time.
I get shouted down for this every time I post it but the Wiss is a shadow of itself. I have ridden the Wiss since 1991. Every single trail is dramatically easier (with one major exception) - what became the monster, the ride to the chief, the ride up from valley green, all of it. The only thing that might be more difficult is the back side of the Chief.

The wiss is now made for SS 29ers. It was not always the case.
 
Why would the Orange and Blue trails get ruined? The only reason that would happen if the land managers or local riders wanted that, and apparently they don't.
When organized groups start "Trail improvements" - it generally leads to crap trails for mountain bikers. The Blue and Orange trails are really nice trails that should be left alone. If that goes, all we will have is Salisbury and south mountain, the last of the area's jewels.
 
I get shouted down for this every time I post it but the Wiss is a shadow of itself. I have ridden the Wiss since 1991. Every single trail is dramatically easier (with one major exception) - what became the monster, the ride to the chief, the ride up from valley green, all of it. The only thing that might be more difficult is the back side of the Chief.

The wiss is now made for SS 29ers. It was not always the case.
Me and my group of buddies have been riding wiss since about 99 so not quite as long, but all say pretty much the same thing. Wiss used to be way more technical. Even if the newer trails get more difficult over time (I have my doubts), I don't see it going back to the way it was. I also wonder if there will be increased conflict between users going forward. Bikers can go way faster in some sections now, to the point where I don't even like hiking some parts for fear of getting creamed.

The good news is Belmont has come into its own in the last few years as a good substitute for some challenge (though certainly not the same rocky terrain) so that's encouraging!
 
Discussion starter · #88 ·
When organized groups start "Trail improvements" - it generally leads to crap trails for mountain bikers. The Blue and Orange trails are really nice trails that should be left alone. If that goes, all we will have is Salisbury and south mountain, the last of the area's jewels.
Interesting. Salisbury and south mountain are under the purview, or whatever you wanna call it, of the (Lehigh) Valley Mountain Bikers, which is a chapter of the IMBA.
 
Interesting. Salisbury and south mountain are under the purview, or whatever you wanna call it, of the (Lehigh) Valley Mountain Bikers, which is a chapter of the IMBA.
Yes, but for the most part VMB has done everything themselves. If VMB was involved, it could be a good thing.
 
well what we are seeing at the wiss is the IMBA trail model being put into place. regardless of whether you like that new style of trail or not it is the new normal and was created mostly by; you guessed it, your fellow mountain bikers at IMBA.

we should not forget how spoiled we are in philly; thank JEEBUS for belmont, there are lots of good folks working to keep that place tight, twisty, and littered with rocks and logs! and thank goodness we have french creek and mt penn where you can rattle your brain in rock gardens all day long...

Sure the wiss is changing but change doesn't have to be bad. I certainly had a blast riding there last night and hauling ass through those new trails was super fun! I feel we can complain about the changes or embrace them and try to shape them to make the best possible outcome for the mtb community. Go read the sustainable trails initiative it will tell you all you need to know; the main trial is going to be completely different eventually.

On my ride last night I was riding with a guy who has also been riding there since pretty much the dawn of the mtb in philly. While we were talking and he mentioned an old friend who had moved away 10-15 years back and how he wouldn't recognize the park these days. Thing is, I don't think he meant it in a bad way...

I think if you want extreme trails anymore you gotta pay to ride a lift or go out to the sticks where you don't have the zillions of users a place like the wiss does...
 
well what we are seeing at the wiss is the IMBA trail model being put into place. regardless of whether you like that new style of trail or not it is the new normal and was created mostly by; you guessed it, your fellow mountain bikers at IMBA.

we should not forget how spoiled we are in philly; thank JEEBUS for belmont, there are lots of good folks working to keep that place tight, twisty, and littered with rocks and logs! and thank goodness we have french creek and mt penn where you can rattle your brain in rock gardens all day long...

Sure the wiss is changing but change doesn't have to be bad. I certainly had a blast riding there last night and hauling ass through those new trails was super fun! I feel we can complain about the changes or embrace them and try to shape them to make the best possible outcome for the mtb community. Go read the sustainable trails initiative it will tell you all you need to know; the main trial is going to be completely different eventually.

On my ride last night I was riding with a guy who has also been riding there since pretty much the dawn of the mtb in philly. While we were talking and he mentioned an old friend who had moved away 10-15 years back and how he wouldn't recognize the park these days. Thing is, I don't think he meant it in a bad way...

I think if you want extreme trails anymore you gotta pay to ride a lift or go out to the sticks where you don't have the zillions of users a place like the wiss does...
I will agree that these are good times for MTBer's in the Philly area. 10 years ago, we had the Wiss, Belmont (which was less maintained), Green lane (but poorly maintained and no official blue or orange), a bad shape stover, a poorly maintained Pennypack and that was about it. Now, Belmont is a hidden jewel, different but still fun, Green lane has become really nice, and Nox is nice to have. Stover is still there and I love it but it needs work.

And you are right, places like Salisbury and French Creek are still there and fun. But the Wiss was once so good, there was no need to leave. But you are right, times change and that park has. All things must pass.

For those that don't know about the FOW Sustainable trails initiative here are some important points:

• closing 22 miles of existing trails and refilling and replanting the trail beds,
• replacing these closed trail segments with newly designed re-routes,
• substantially rebuilding and improving an additional 22 miles of existing trails,

Max is right, the FOW is going to change the trail system in the Wiss, and in my mind, not for the better. But again, all things must pass.
 
Discussion starter · #93 ·
Philly & the IMBA

So Salisbury is under the VMB; and Mt Penn and French Creek are under Berks Area MBA. Camp Mack, Gretna and Rattling Creek (as mentioned recently in another similar thread) is Susquehanna Area MBA. All are IMBA chapters, and all the trails are fairly rocky and technical.
I don't buy the argument that IMBA is out to dumb everything down. All the spots "in the sticks" are in IMBA chapter areas. It's nice, because they all have good Web sites with trail info, closure and maintenance updates, maps, directions...
 
Relatively new to the mtb scene and I'm assuming "technical refers to rocks and roots", but I personally like the smooth sections you can fly down with small bumps to catch some air.

Perhaps that's my personal riding style, but I'd like to see more drops and jumps to make those downhill sections more fun and "technical".
 
The wiss trails are multi-user trails. as such, it is highly unlikely that you will ever see purpose-built drops, jumps and gaps- it's just not that kind of trail and the speeds that those sorts of features require creates a significant hazard to other trail users. Remember that technically, our speeds at the Wiss are limited to 7 mph, which, in and of itself, is ridiculous, but the spirit of the rule requires that we ride in a manner that is safe and respectful of other trail users. If you want jumps, go to a bike park where bikes are the only user group.
 
Relatively new to the mtb scene and I'm assuming "technical refers to rocks and roots", but I personally like the smooth sections you can fly down with small bumps to catch some air.

Perhaps that's my personal riding style, but I'd like to see more drops and jumps to make those downhill sections more fun and "technical".
See, in a multi use setting, I think trails like that cause problems (actually what Gigantic said below).
 
So many people post on the internet complaining about how the Wiss is dumbed down. But, the funny thing is, when you're actually out there, what you usually see is everyone riding around all the great challenging features that are there.

I humbly submit that, before you complain, you might ask yourself if you're really taking advantage of all the fun injury opportunities the Wiss has to offer.
 
OldManBike I have totally noticed that trend lately!

Lately I seem to have to stop and close at least one reroute everytime i ride. Apparently some people definitely still think the wiss is too hard. I don't get the self entitlement that says "since i can't ride this i should be able to dumb it down to where i can..."

As you learn to love the wiss over the course of years and watch it grow get destroyed and reborn many times over you will learn to grow a thick skin. the place gets used HARD by all kinds of people in all kinds of weather. You just have to learn to enjoy it as it is and do your best to keep it as nice as you can. Thinking about it; i can't really think of any "real" multi-use trail system in the whole US that sees the traffic the wiss does. I am sure most of you have noticed more and more folks in the park over the years so the park will keep needing to change and improve handle the ever increasing loads. To me this isn't good or bad; but it is important to see the bigger picture and realize that mountain bikes are really just a small part of a much larger puzzle that is this park.
 
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