Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?

Triton Bikes · Jan 26, 2015

xmessenger said:
I hoped the guy got it in the end and was happy.
I really see this as a common situation for a new custom bike business,especially overseas, and a customer.

Thanks for the kind words!
It's been a good lesson.
A lot happened since 2012 when this thread was active.
Now we know how to build stiff frames. Now we say "no" to a customer when customization goes far.
Well, I actually NO like twice a day. There are many requests.

We have also solved the issue of limited tire space on the short rear ended 29er by designing a CNC machined Ti 6-4 yoke that provides plenty of clearance both for the tire and drivetrain.
It was initially inspired by the Paragon 3" yoke for semifat bikes. We tried to make it as stiff as possible while maintaining light weight. We love the results. The first batch of the yokes has already been booked/bought for the next custom project. Preparing a new batch now.

Tea@Dimbola · Jan 26, 2015

I remember I had one of the early Cotic Soda models. It was about 3.4 lbs and rode like a dream on my local forest trails. However, when I took it on one of the Cotic/AQR skills weekends in The Peaks (Peak District England), I found it scary and way too flexi downhill - it just felt out of control. It got stolen in early 2008 and I replaced it with a new Soul. The stiffer 853 steel showed me just how noodly and flexibile the old Soda frame had been. Some years later I saw a youtube video of Cy Turner giving a lecture on designing bikes in Ti and Steel - and explaining how he'd had to modify the original Soda design. I thought to myself: "I know exactly what you're talking about - I remember scaring myself shitless on that frame." I never rode the new Soda but I'm guessing Cy learned lessons from the first version.
I've got a Salsa El-Mariachi Ti these days and I love it, but I take my Spearfish to rocky trails!

TitaniumV12 · Jan 27, 2015

"WHO" said Titanium was the END-ALL material for EVERY PERCEPTION BIAS/Application?

(Non-malicious inquiry) I don't understand "flex," as stated...

Hrmm all this talk about PERCEIVED "flex" from a very strong material. Just what is this "flex" standard MEASURED at? There has to be some kind of ratio, or 0-plane reference to differentiate "flex," from "flexy," "flex-ish," "flexible," etc. Each person has a different sensitivity, thus "perception" IS non-static in this regard, unless a measurable/set standard is founded.

How many mm-degrees of "flex" from the static operating position does the frame exhibit? You know many times we can "perceive" we were going faster/slower than assumed during a given trial. This is perception-bias. Many a time we are fooled and assume causation in a part or grouping of parts, where it may not be. I'm tired of this dead-horse being reanimated.

HOW MUCH "FLEX" in milimeters CAN YOU PERCEIVE or else I claim perception bias. No more "I can feel it, it's so pronounced..." Proof? Bc we all PERCEIVE DIFFERENTLY, so your story is hard to comprehend in another's POV.
___I don't know your measure of perception to gauge mine from.... For example; a metal frame in winter vs summer, you ought to be able to discern the difference of "flex" in such extreme temp diffs right? -10F vs 95F is a significant performance temp variance (common in many states). I know machines can measure the repeatable diffs in temp effected- variant stiffness; can you? Can *I* or "US" do this precise AND accurately? The metal is either, actually flexing (measurable) or it's not; a "feeling" isn't a reliable measure to convey an accurate assessment of said "flex" issue, no? Each day you "feel" or "perceive" differently.

I'm not saying you aren't perceiving said "flex," I'm questioning your accuracy, as it will change per situation. We aren't machines capable of such accurate measures independant of our "mood," "feelings," many factors affect our perception (bias) with out our awareness of them...

Here is the BIAS from which the foundation of this thread is based upon: ...[Ti is branded (and priced accordingly) as the wonder material for rigid and hardtail bikes.] SAYS WHO? Marketing gimmicks/bias/frame manufacturers (merchants)/boutique materials suppliers (merchants). Said players in said market all have a reason to sell you towards your biases - and they WILL regardless of them.

Thanks for the brand/purchase report! :thumbsup:

Donkeeboy · Jan 27, 2015

When Triton went on sabbatical a few years back, I enlisted an ex ti guy from a company that is now defunct, for $800 he planned to build me a custom muni frame. After three iterations, lots of broken welds, some super flexy rames, I gave up on him and on ti. Ti has it's value, but steel, al, and now carbon are just better choices. To sure is pretty, perhaps as a wedding band

Jayem · Jan 27, 2015

People thought Ti was some wonder material that would make for a lighter and stronger bike as compared to aluminum. While it's true that titanium will last indefinitely when kept below it's plastic deformation limit, a similar aluminum frame would never fail in our lifetime, even though it's technically "life limited" to a certain number of cycles. Carbon fiber has taken the front stage offering the weight reduction that titanium never could, with a softer/absorbent ride that aluminum doesn't have.

Don't take this the wrong way, I don't hate or dislike Ti frames, but these days they are more of a niche product for people that just want to be different, not the "ultimate frame material" it was made out to be back in the 90s.

dRjOn · Jan 27, 2015

not to be pedantic but titanium was used as an alternative to steel frames, initially. tube wall thickness is an important discussion for something that gets used like an MTB. its an interesting story. see here:

Ibis Cycles US

Triton Bikes · Jan 30, 2015

Nurse Ben said:
When Triton went on sabbatical a few years back, I enlisted an ex ti guy from a company that is now defunct, for $800 he planned to build me a custom muni frame. After three iterations, lots of broken welds, some super flexy rames, I gave up on him and on ti. Ti has it's value, but steel, al, and now carbon are just better choices. To sure is pretty, perhaps as a wedding band

So far we have built about 200 unicycle titanium Triton frames.
And none has cracked or bent. Ever.

Donkeeboy · Jan 30, 2015

I'm sure yours are better than the one I commissioned, but still Ti is a boutique material.

I am glad that you guys are back building frames

Triton Bikes said:
So far we have built about 200 unicycle titanium Triton frames.
And none has cracked or bent. Ever.

DeeZee · Jan 30, 2015

Nurse Ben said:
I'm sure yours are better than the one I commissioned, but still Ti is a boutique material.

I am glad that you guys are back building frames

My first "real" mbike (1989) was a Ti Bike made by Merlin Merlin Bikes

Light and dam sexy for the time. There were several issues with it and didn't keep it for long. Main issue....flex.

I had to run super skinny tires or always stay seated. Out of the saddle the tires would rub. Tried different wheels etc....nothing seemed to help.

Brake fade. The frame had rim brakes and would flex reducing the stopping power. Ran a brake booster to help with the problem.

Bottom Bracket. Again.....noticeable flex.

Front End. Just scary going DH.

I have ridden (too many to remember) Steel, Alum, Ti, Scandium and Carbon HT's. By far Carbon is my favorite (for a HT).

Tea@Dimbola · Jan 31, 2015

It all comes down to personal taste in the end. When I got the El-Mar Ti, I had a Turner Flux which was my favourite bike up to then. As soon as I got on the El-Mar, I loved it and enjoyed it more than the Flux. I knew it had limitations and that the Flux was better on any bumpy downhill. Despite that I just loved to ride the El-Mar 95% of the time. I thought maybe I could reach a happy compromise by getting a Spearfish, but found I still liked the Ti El-Mar best of all. So that's how it stands: the Flux got sold off as I became a complete 29er convert, I ride the Spearfish if I'm going somewhere rough and fast (like The Gap in Wales...in fact, even the Spearfish is not really enough bike for that stuff), but the Ti El-Mar is what I prefer to ride the vast majority of the time.

bonesetter2004 · Jan 31, 2015

DeeZee said:
My first "real" mbike (1989) was a Ti Bike made by Merlin Merlin Bikes

Light and dam sexy for the time. There were several issues with it and didn't keep it for long. Main issue....flex.

I had to run super skinny tires or always stay seated. Out of the saddle the tires would rub. Tried different wheels etc....nothing seemed to help.

Brake fade. The frame had rim brakes and would flex reducing the stopping power. Ran a brake booster to help with the problem.

Bottom Bracket. Again.....noticeable flex.

Front End. Just scary going DH.

I have ridden (too many to remember) Steel, Alum, Ti, Scandium and Carbon HT's. By far Carbon is my favorite (for a HT).

Which CF HT was that?

DeeZee · Jan 31, 2015

bonesetter2004 said:
Which CF HT was that?

That I have or liked?

bonesetter2004 · Jan 31, 2015

DeeZee said:
That I have or liked?

Lol. How about both as you've offered a choice

I'm looking at CF HT's and was wanting your feedback

richwolf · Jan 31, 2015

The one thing that people ignore about Titanium is just how flat our sexy it looks and how long it stays looking that way!
I have had FS, hardtails, chromoly, aluminum but never carbon.
I like a bike that lasts and for my purposes of XC riding and bikepacking Ti fits the bill perfectly.
Trying to make a material fit a use it might not be optimally suited for is asking for disappointment. Titanium has it's place and I think it is pretty much for XC applications. Want lightweight and stiff for a race bike then you probably have to look at carbon. Downhill or full suspension probably aluminum or carbon.
Steel to me isn't my favorite material for a bike. I don't like the rusting or weight of it and for some reason it never floated my boat.
As for ride quality of a material, I think it is overblown. Tire pressure, front suspension, geometry and many other things trump frame material for ride quality.

Jayem · Jan 31, 2015

richwolf said:
Steel to me isn't my favorite material for a bike. I don't like the rusting or weight of it and for some reason it never floated my boat.

Then you are probably not going to like Titanium, which weighs almost exactly the same in mtb applications. This is one of the reasons it wasn't an "uber material" for bikes as was first thought.

richwolf · Feb 1, 2015

Jayem said:
Then you are probably not going to like Titanium, which weighs almost exactly the same in mtb applications. This is one of the reasons it wasn't an "uber material" for bikes as was first thought.

Sorry, I have over 15,000 miles on my Ti bike and love it. Lighter than my steel bike it Replaced by about a pound. Have done lots of bikepacking with it including the Tour Divide in 2012.

Jayem · Feb 1, 2015

richwolf said:
Sorry, I have over 15,000 miles on my Ti bike and love it. Lighter than my steel bike it Replaced by about a pound. Have done lots of bikepacking with it including the Tour Divide in 2012.

Your titanium frame is 2.4lbs? Doubt it.

richwolf · Feb 1, 2015

Jayem said:
Your titanium frame is 2.4lbs? Doubt it.

Geeez, who peed in your wheaties?
My old steel frame was around 4.5 pounds and my Ti around 3.5
Argue on. I am out of this thread!

SS Hack · Feb 1, 2015

Maybe the lesson is to not cheap out with a Ti frame made on the other side of the world.

1 Speed · Feb 1, 2015

richwolf said:
Sorry, I have over 15,000 miles on my Ti bike and love it. Lighter than my steel bike it Replaced by about a pound. Have done lots of bikepacking with it including the Tour Divide in 2012.

I have a Ti Indy Fab that I probably have a pretty similar number of miles and also did the TDR in '12 on... If I could afford it and the people I want frames from, made them, I'd have all my frames made in Ti. The only crappy Ti frame I've ever had came from a boutique builder in CO and it wasn't the materials fault, it was the builders. As far as weight.... I really don't care, it's the ride I care about and Ti rides better than steel and steel far, far better than aluminum, in my experience. Mind you, I ride my bikes rigid and primarily singlespeed too.

Titanium - Not all its cracked up to be?

Triton Bikes

Tea@Dimbola

TitaniumV12

Donkeeboy

Jayem

dRjOn

Triton Bikes

Donkeeboy

DeeZee

Tea@Dimbola

bonesetter2004

DeeZee

bonesetter2004

richwolf

Jayem

richwolf

Jayem

richwolf

SS Hack

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