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Is climbing *ONLY* about power to weight ratio?

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SpareTireScott

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
This seems obvious... I have a friend who is very near my ability. We did a road time trial series this year and often were within seconds of each other. He brought home the series better time than me by 0.8 seconds.

I weigh 165lbs., he weighs 195lbs. Scientific crap aside, my 30min time trial watts were about 205 the one day I took the power meter along. His were around 220-230.

We also used to climb at nearly the same rate, usually with me slightly faster. Sometime in May my training snapped and I started climbing significantly faster than him, but on the flats we still are about the same.

We were talking about training for next year and wanting to do better on hills, heck, that's all we have in Colorado. Obviously we all know that the only way to climb better is to climb a lot. He said though that climbing is ONLY about power-to-weight ratio, so he reasons that if he trains on the flats and gets his threshold power to 300W, that he will be some super climber...

Somehow I don't think it's going to work that way, but I have no reasonable argument to refute why other than saying, "you use slightly different muscles when climbing"... Can someone shed some light on this for me?
 
#2 ·
IMHO, climbing is a lot in the brains.... for me , it's hard to finnish a climb if early on I think 'what a hell of a climb, I'm not going to make it...' and guess what, I don't. Sometimes I have just decided to go and see how far or fast I can climb, and just keep on going, saying, '... well, I'm stopping but AFTER that rock' and when closing on the rock, I put another target, and another, when I least remember I'm at the top... Maybe not king of the hill, but pretty close ;)
 
#3 ·
Also, as to speed and best techniques, I think it depends on the individual. I'm a clyde, but I'm finding that, except for climbs over a mile, I peddal better in my middle front ring than on the granny, using slow strong strokes, while some friends, lighter than me, go to an easier gear peddaling faster. Unless there is a big difference in levels, I find that we usually go similar in speeds.

So.. maybe it's not just power and weight... maybe I would think it be power, endurance, speed, willpower and weight to consider in climbs.....

Those are the things I things I think are important, but can't make a strong case on it. Let's see what others have to say..
 
#4 ·
I guess it depends on...

the situation. If it is a techy steep climb, technique will play in more than sheer strength, providing you have enough muscle power to keep going. Also depends on the situation, like racing at the edge with somebody crawling up your backside, psyching you out ('Dude, is your frame cracked?' 'Is your rear QR open?' 'Boy, your seat looks too low!' 'PSSSS PSSSSS PSSSS!'), mental toughness plays in as well.
 
#5 ·
SpareTireScott said:
This seems obvious... I have a friend who is very near my ability. We did a road time trial series this year and often were within seconds of each other. He brought home the series better time than me by 0.8 seconds.

I weigh 165lbs., he weighs 195lbs. Scientific crap aside, my 30min time trial watts were about 205 the one day I took the power meter along. His were around 220-230.

We also used to climb at nearly the same rate, usually with me slightly faster. Sometime in May my training snapped and I started climbing significantly faster than him, but on the flats we still are about the same.

We were talking about training for next year and wanting to do better on hills, heck, that's all we have in Colorado. Obviously we all know that the only way to climb better is to climb a lot. He said though that climbing is ONLY about power-to-weight ratio, so he reasons that if he trains on the flats and gets his threshold power to 300W, that he will be some super climber...

Somehow I don't think it's going to work that way, but I have no reasonable argument to refute why other than saying, "you use slightly different muscles when climbing"... Can someone shed some light on this for me?
Click to expand...
everything else being equal i would say yes its all about power to weight ratio.

but on a mtb things hardly could ever be equal just simply narrowed down to the fact that you two will never choose the same line, different rocks, roots whatever.

on a road bike such as in your TT experiment, 'everything' will be much closer

in mtb and at a non-professional level (both mtb and road), i think there are a lot of other factors that will affect those numbers, technique, body position, because who really has the time to perfect everything.

simply stated, yes if he increases his threshold his climbing will get better. but there also is an efficiently issue there is an optimum w/kg ratio for everyone. the point for which (as your wieght drops) the ratio will increase, until you reach a point where cannot produce the same watts

you are at a distinct advantage and disadvantage because of your weght no matter what your firends power output is you will be a more effiecient climber because your firend is carrying almost 12kg more than you but at the same time you will be at a disavantage on the flats.

additionally, you need to do a power test on the climb two different animals climbing and the flats.
 
#6 ·
Improving your climbing while riding flats.

I just don't think so. So much to climbing is rhythm within pain. We have to manage that torquie (new word) exertion to mitigate it's effects as we steer and all the resistance to roll due to grade and surface. I have friends who ride trainers to try and duplicate hills. It just isn't there.
I've just come back from several months off of the bike. I had been warned that at my age it would take some time. I knew patience would be critical so I rode lots of easy flat stuff, going long when I could in a mix of road and dirt. I ride with friends whose abilities I know and now feel that, after 2 months, I am back. But it is different.
I have always been a great climber, in my local pond, and it has always served me well when I rode in other places with other skilled riders. My climbing, though, has been the last thing to return.
I just came off of a 135 mile Road Ride. No matter where I was in the overall ride, while my climbing was fine, my overall leg was much better on the flats.
"Fine" is unacceptable. Flats won't bring it back. I need to climb hills to improve my hill climbing.
 
#7 ·
little OT but im i a similar situation

Berkeley Mike said:
I have always been a great climber, in my local pond, and it has always served me well when I rode in other places with other skilled riders. My climbing, though, has been the last thing to return.
I just came off of a 135 mile Road Ride. No matter where I was in the overall ride, while my climbing was fine, my overall leg was much better on the flats.
"Fine" is unacceptable. Flats won't bring it back. I need to climb hills to improve my hill climbing.
Click to expand...
except i took about 5 months off....and my climbing has suffered horribly is sooooo frustrating, i feel like i could hammer all day on the flats...but when i hit the hills...man ive been suffering
 
#8 ·
many variables ..

Yes it is about power to weight ratio, but you must include the total weight of rider, bike, water, etc. (What did you do to get faster? New bike? Change gearing or technique?)

If your friend gets to 300W then he could climb faster but he will heat up faster, so in long hot climbs you may still be number one.

How different the muscles are depends on climbing technique, e.g. sit and spin or stand and mash, although basic aerobic conditioning helps in all cases.
 
#9 ·
Physics is the most important factor, Power, weight, rolling resistance

SpareTireScott said:
This seems obvious... I have a friend who is very near my ability. We did a road time trial series this year and often were within seconds of each other. He brought home the series better time than me by 0.8 seconds.

I weigh 165lbs., he weighs 195lbs. Scientific crap aside, my 30min time trial watts were about 205 the one day I took the power meter along. His were around 220-230.

We also used to climb at nearly the same rate, usually with me slightly faster. Sometime in May my training snapped and I started climbing significantly faster than him, but on the flats we still are about the same.

We were talking about training for next year and wanting to do better on hills, heck, that's all we have in Colorado. Obviously we all know that the only way to climb better is to climb a lot. He said though that climbing is ONLY about power-to-weight ratio, so he reasons that if he trains on the flats and gets his threshold power to 300W, that he will be some super climber...

Somehow I don't think it's going to work that way, but I have no reasonable argument to refute why other than saying, "you use slightly different muscles when climbing"... Can someone shed some light on this for me?
Click to expand...
Now, you have about a 7.8% advantage in power to weight ratio which will give you an advantage on the climbs. However weight is not so important a factor on the flats.
Unless you are on a technical climb, then its mostly about power to weight ratio, and of course, cardio-fitness.
Different muscles do come into play as you do more out of saddle on the climbs so you must do more training out of saddle.
Lastly, I seriously doubt your friend has any chance of raising his threshold power level from 230 to 300 which is a 30% increase in power. Unless he is not at all fit NOW, then you simply cannot expect to raise your power that much. Perhaps 10%, but not 30% unless you are a newbie and not presently fit.

Another important factor is tire choice after you have made the bike a bit lighter.
Tire choice is more important than taking off the last few hundred grams of bike weight.
If you have a tire with sufficient grip, then using the tire with the lowest rolling resistance will make a large difference in your time.....but you must still have sufficient grip for the surface. Its a balancing act. Still, there are many tires that can give you an extra 10 to 20 watts of power while still keeping adequate traction. This is a often overlooked angle in faster climbing.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
pacman said:
Yes it is about power to weight ratio, but you must include the total weight of rider, bike, water, etc. (What did you do to get faster? New bike? Change gearing or technique?)
Click to expand...
Just have been riding my arse off, lots of climbing, and trying to hit every climb as hard and as fast as I could.... my Powertap broke early in the summer so I have no numbers on climbs, it's back now, but I've been on my mountain bike almost entirely since July and haven't touch my road bike since.
 
#11 ·
Improving your climbing while riding flats

Berkeley Mike said:
"Fine" is unacceptable. Flats won't bring it back. I need to climb hills to improve my hill climbing.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily true Mike. Take a look at this article about a Houston rider named Will Black. Obviously there aren't many hills around Houston, so he trains by hammering intervals in his big ring on his local trails. In 2003, he took 4th place in the Leadville 100, located here in Colorado.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125540
 
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#13 · (Edited)
Sorry you have to spend time on hills to get better at riding/climbing them! It's as simple as that. I was progressing OK when I was first starting, but not really as well on the hills and was told repeatedly by a cousin that I had to do hills and do them in big gears and push it to build my climbing strength and ability - You know what, I'm a fast climber now, cause that's exactly what I did/do I ride hills and ride in big gears (as the terain will allow if off road, on road it's big ring all the way).

Also riding hills helps build stamina a lot more than riding flats IMHO. I found this out when I did my first long ride -58 miles- never did over 30 before that and did it with pretty much ease compared to a lot of others who had done that distance before - ony thing I can attribute this to is my liking of having a lot of climbs in my rides.

Forgot to answer the question, got all into the training. YES it's basically all power to weight - if 2 riders are going up a hill and both can produce the same power, but one's lighter by 10lbs then he will get to the top faster (once as said several times he has the same determintaion as the other person)

Determination is an amazing thing though :D
 
#14 ·
watts/kg , SRM and being a weirdo

:confused: You know, it's a good question that you are raising.
I ride mtb and road. I have had a polar powermeter and now an SRM for a few months.
I am 5.8, 138 pounds and am a "decent" climber. I have noticed that the greater the gradient is , the more important power/weight ratio becomes. I also have noticed that I am able to sustain a greater average wattage going uphill than on the flats.. and that doesn't seem very logical but i guess the answer is partly psychological and partly neuromuscular. To give you an example, there is a long climb that I do often...it starts with about 5 min constant gradient at 6-7 %, I can sustain 290 Watts, then the gradient decreases to 0-1% for 1 min and then kicks back to 7-9% for the remaining 25 min.
When I analyze the data of my srm, I see that if I want to keep the same wattage on the flat section, my heart rate goes up , my perceived exertion goes up and I have to slow down a bit. When the steeper section arrives, my power goes up, heart rate calms down a little and my perceive exertion as well....Maybe I am a weirdo.
Anyways, powertraining is fun, motivating and efficient.
 
#15 ·
Certainly climbing is a power to weight ratio thing. If your buddy is carrying extra weight, at anywhere near the same wattage, he's going to be slower. I've found also that climbing is your ability to suffer as well, this is where the mental aspect comes in. I'm 240 lbs yet I can outclimb a lot of my much skinnier friends because I am willing to suffer more than they are. If your buddy isn't a masochist I can't see him being faster on extended climbs than you, all else being equal. Good luck.
 
#16 ·
off season and weights

How do you prepare in the off season? If you do weights do you hit lots of reps with low weight or high weight and max out. I know I will do some spinning classes this winter so I dont have to spend my april and may trying to get up to snuff. Sorry for being a buzz killer but I was looking out the window the other day thinking...I better find something to satisfy me cause riding is keeping me sane right now. I guess I could snowboard but gas is so ridiculous I dont want be driving to the resorts everyweekend.

To keep with the theme. I have been trying to climb more frequently in the middle gear. I can do it on some parts of trails and one particular trail to the top.
 
#17 ·
mward said:
I've found also that climbing is your ability to suffer as well, this is where the mental aspect comes in. I'm 240 lbs yet I can outclimb a lot of my much skinnier friends because I am willing to suffer more than they are.
Click to expand...
I was thinking along similar lines. I am able to pretty much ignore / embrace pain - my legs will quit working long before I'll let pain stop me. I thank my stint in the army for that. You learn how to endure crap that most of the civilian population will never encounter.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum though - 145lb and all of it legs. I might fade out on the long flat stretches but I can climb like a monkey on crack.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Exactly!

fabe said:
To give you an example, there is a long climb that I do often...it starts with about 5 min constant gradient at 6-7 %, I can sustain 290 Watts, then the gradient decreases to 0-1% for 1 min and then kicks back to 7-9% for the remaining 25 min.
When I analyze the data of my srm, I see that if I want to keep the same wattage on the flat section, my heart rate goes up , my perceived exertion goes up and I have to slow down a bit. When the steeper section arrives, my power goes up, heart rate calms down a little and my perceive exertion as well....
This is exactly why I asked if it's only about power to weight ratio... it seems I can sustain much more power while climbing than on the flats.. and I have friends my weight who kill me on climbs, but struggle to keep up when we really hammer on the flats... yet I have no reasonable explanation why...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
#19 ·
I'll be honest, I think your thresh hold for pain has a grat deal to do with being a strong climber...or just being fast in general. One of my best friends use to be a pro roadie and eventually just got burned out. Well, a few years and about fifty pounds later, he hops on a bike again. Long story short, he hammered all of us in the ground -and we were riding every day and winning races at the time.
I asked him how he did it later and he he told me that the key to being fast was being mentally tough; being able to pedal harder even though it hurts like hell. After riding withhim on several occasions, i believe it.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Sooo.... not to revive a dead post, but I finally got to ride with my Powertap now that it's back.. interesting results... on the flats I tool along at 160bpm and 168W.... 160bpm is my very casual pace... hit a climb and the power bumps up to about 220-230W but I stay at the same heart rate...

Now I'm really confused... how can power go up, but heart rate stay the same? I can only guess maybe I pedal more efficiently while climbing?
 
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