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The real price of leaf blowing

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#22 ·
Trail Ninja said:
Stay on the trail. No braiding. Go.

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Perfect, and fitting. ^ This is actually me doing VA's Southern Traverse (SMT) on 11/13/10.
It's a remote ridgeline singletrack that sees little traffic, or maintenance.

Never had I seen so many leaves, it was like skiing deep powder, impossible to see rocks, stumps, or the trails edge. On sidehill exposures it was very sketchy.

This is not the situation near Metro DC, where tails are easily accessed, maintained, and used heavily.
 
#23 ·
This is a great conversation... I really appreciate the time and consideration the author put into sharing his observations. It is the discussion for me that will advance greater awareness regardless of conditions or region you live.

In N Calif in the Western Sierras, we can get massive build up of organics on the trail. Both Oak leaves and Pine Needles. In addition, each winter brings lots of sticks and pine cones onto the trail. This becomes a major problem when it gets more than a inch thick. With many miles of trail to maintain... regional solutions and tactics are key.

I have found that blowing the trails removes too much of the darker mulched organics in addition to the top cover, leaving more of the base clay soils exposed. This definitely is more muddy when wet and degrades the surface more both through traffic wear, greater compaction/displacement and splash erosion. The real problem though for us is, if blown clean, halfway through the year (no rain in summer), the trail is covered with mercury like dust. (further erosion through displacement and not healthy)

My new solution is to pull a light chain link drag behind my ROKON. This scatters surface rocks, sticks, pine cones and most leaves and pine needles off the tread without disturbing the base layer that is Knit together, partially broken down litter. This removes the majority of the fresh spongy type material while leaving enough other organics to reduce wear.

I got to say, my biggest surprise is reading that people still believe that out-sloping trails is effective. Narrow surface trails with moderate use compact and displace soils fast enough to cup a tread every year defeating out-sloping. That is a lot of maintenance! California is plagued all up and down our coast with (once) beautiful trails that have suffered massive failures due to the lack of annual outter edge maintenance(side slope built). When out-sloping fails, water can travel 100s of feet accumulating enough energy to erode. I have found that trails with frequent grade reversals do not have this problem. (different discussion :) )
 
#24 ·
zachi said:
I got to say, my biggest surprise is reading that people still believe that out-sloping trails is effective. Narrow surface trails with moderate use compact and displace soils fast enough to cup a tread every year defeating out-sloping. That is a lot of maintenance! California is plagued all up and down our coast with (once) beautiful trails that have suffered massive failures due to the lack of annual outter edge maintenance(side slope built). When out-sloping fails, water can travel 100s of feet accumulating enough energy to erode. I have found that trails with frequent grade reversals do not have this problem. (different discussion :) )
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We mostly build our trails with a much wider base, but keep the active thread narrow. When you factor speed, flow and intended usage, building in a 4-5ft wide corridor can actually be pretty narrow with the newer bike that are intended to ride like way faster. A 4ft fully-benched & properly outsloped trail w/ 2ft thread is actually pretty darn easy to maintain. After many years of building with this technique, I still have to return to fix a single cup on a trail.

I agree that a grade reversal is, by itself, a better drainage solution than outsloping. Efficiency come from a mix of various techniques well blended together.
 
#25 ·
I admit, I still generally out-slope where it does not contradict needed cambering. I feel I need to kick out-sloping in the nuts often though because I see so much defensive resistance from our own state parks and others to do anything else. This is especially frustrating where multipurpose trails have out-sloped turns that fly in the face of needed cambering causing excessive lateral wear on the trail and dangerous riding environments.
 
#26 ·
ameletus1 said:
NateHawk, who posted the most elaborate reply, says, "Early in the spring, the wind probably plays more of a role in drying things out than during other times of the year, so getting wet leaves off the trail that are still covering parts of it would help." Where I live, early in spring you are still experiencing freeze thaw cycles which, on bare soil, brings up moisture from the deeper soils. So bare trails stay wetter. And in my local climate, it is not as if spring is a time of zero precipitation, when you are just waiting for things to dry out from winter.

No soil conservation expert would recommend bare soil as good conservation practice. For many years the Soil Conservation Service advocated that sod is the best way to stabilize soil in open areas. Heavy bike or even foot traffic through a grassy area tends to pack down the soil to a nice fast surface, but eventually kills the grass, which results in trail gullying even where gradient is modest. Thus, at Fair Hill, in open fields we often see a succession of tracks. Once a track becomes gullied a few inches, riders then avoid those and start a new, parallel track. A succession of 3 or 4 tracks is often evident. Sod must be living to afford soil protection. Leaves on woodland trails perform the same function, but since they are already dead, heavy traffic does not compromise their conservation abilities (unless it is horse traffic, of course--then all bets are off!).
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Stupendous Man said:
I haven't watched the video yet, but if you are relying on leaf cover to prevent soil erosion, then you are dealing with poorly designed trails.
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I also didn't watch the video and agree with Stupendous Man, quoted above, and Nate Hawk, who I didn't quote. In your post I quoted above, it sounds like you're describing cupping, which happens when you build trail on ground that is too shallow/flat for drainage; the tread compacts lower than the surrounding ground, and the water that gets on the tread has no where to go. Build your trails on a slope of no less than 7 percent, depending on the soil, amount of rock, annual rain fall, tree cover, etc. with a good bench cut, back slope, etc., and you're likely to see less of an issue regardless of leaf litter.

And what I should've lead with is: I doubt anyone here will have his mind changed on this topic. This is the Internet. No one goes on the Internet thinking they want someone to change his mind about something. Some people like leaves on the tread; some don't. As I stated above, I clear leaves for safety/liability reasons. I hear from many of the riders that they appreciate the trails being leaf blown. No one has told me that they prefers leaves, but I kind of think someone wouldn't complain about that.

If you like leaves on the trail, leave them. If you don't, remove them. And ride your bike. But no one here needs to be told that. :thumbsup:

D
 
#27 ·
dburatti said:
... Build your trails on a slope of no less than 7 percent, depending on the soil, amount of rock, annual rain fall, tree cover, etc. with a good bench cut, back slope, etc., and you're likely to see less of an issue regardless of leaf litter.
...

D
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I'm in the rake-just-enough-to-find-the-trail camp.

Has anyone EVER observed such an accumulation of organic "fill" (decomposing leaves and whatnot) that it actually became a problem? I don't mean a berm of leaves. I mean where the trail gets so filled in that it basically has a new surface on top of the original one, then develops a groove, then accumulates water. A lot of people use that reason to support leaf-blowing, but it seems an unlikely eventuality.

Over the last 2 riding seasons I have observed that anywhere that the trail is properly constructed, it will drain no matter if it's leaf-covered or not. If the leaves break down, they typically get dispersed if there is any traffic. So I don't see a huge need to leaf blow - just a need to clear the drains and maybe define the tread to keep users on track.
And while I do slow down for slick, leaf-covered trails, I think it's a good skilz test and lots of fun.

-F
 
#28 ·
The correct answer is that it depends. It depends on the soil conditions, amount of traffic, trails construction, etc...

We are trying leaf blowing all the trails at Brown County State Park this year. We have really good clay that is rock solid when dry, but can be nasty when it becomes water logged. Because of the elevation and geographical formations, we get a lot of seeps. Some seeps only run in the early spring, and other can run year long. When the moisture source is from seeps, the leaves act as a tarp holding in moisture and blocking drainage. Eventually the leaves start to rot and leave a dark organic layer on top of the clay. The organic layer holds moisture. When leaves get pushed off of the trail then generally get pushed to the down hill side of the trail and block up drains.

At my local trail, Town Run, we have sandy soil that could use some more organic material and no seeps, so we do not leaf blow those trails.
 
#29 ·
Fleas said:
I'm in the rake-just-enough-to-find-the-trail camp.

Has anyone EVER observed such an accumulation of organic "fill" (decomposing leaves and whatnot) that it actually became a problem? I don't mean a berm of leaves. I mean where the trail gets so filled in that it basically has a new surface on top of the original one, then develops a groove, then accumulates water. A lot of people use that reason to support leaf-blowing, but it seems an unlikely eventuality.

Over the last 2 riding seasons I have observed that anywhere that the trail is properly constructed, it will drain no matter if it's leaf-covered or not. If the leaves break down, they typically get dispersed if there is any traffic. So I don't see a huge need to leaf blow - just a need to clear the drains and maybe define the tread to keep users on track.
And while I do slow down for slick, leaf-covered trails, I think it's a good skilz test and lots of fun.

-F
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On flat trail where it would fill has never been the issue in the NC Piedmont. What is the problem are the drains and how water carries leaf litter to those drains and clogs them up. I blew the leaves off and concentrated heavily on blowing the drains deep and wide. Rode recently and was pleasantly NOT surprised how well the drains have been working with all the rain we've had this year. :) I keep telling people this but the have a hard time listening. Ah, well. Nothing like reinventing the f'ing wheel every few years... :p
 
#30 ·
Fleas said:
I'm in the rake-just-enough-to-find-the-trail camp.

Has anyone EVER observed such an accumulation of organic "fill" (decomposing leaves and whatnot) that it actually became a problem? I don't mean a berm of leaves. I mean where the trail gets so filled in that it basically has a new surface on top of the original one, then develops a groove, then accumulates water. A lot of people use that reason to support leaf-blowing, but it seems an unlikely eventuality.

Over the last 2 riding seasons I have observed that anywhere that the trail is properly constructed, it will drain no matter if it's leaf-covered or not. If the leaves break down, they typically get dispersed if there is any traffic. So I don't see a huge need to leaf blow - just a need to clear the drains and maybe define the tread to keep users on track.
And while I do slow down for slick, leaf-covered trails, I think it's a good skilz test and lots of fun.

-F
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Not sure if the situation you described could actually happen, but leaves can and do cause issues with drainages and hold extra moisture in the soil when matted over a trail. This results in a greater probability of rutting and accelerated cupping in softer soils when people don't obey trail closures (there are always a few). This is the main reason I remove leaves.

We have a local trail that is very flat, has rocky soil, is well used, and gets a lot of leaf cover in the fall. We don't usually remove the leaves from the trail and after years of accumulation and decomposition they have created areas of black thick organic dirt that get really nasty when wet and take weeks to dry as opposed to hours for the rest of the trail. This organic material sits on top of otherwise well drained rocky soil.

I just blew the leaves off a different trail systems a couple of days ago hoping to get it to dry faster after the winter thaw by allowing sun/wind to act on the soil. There were more than a few areas where the leaves had matted down and were trapping excess moisture as well as blocking drains. Areas not covered by leaves were already dry enough where rut formation wouldn't be an issue but leaf covered areas a short distance away were still very wet and soft.
 
#31 ·
Dirt Engineer said:
...What is the problem are the drains and how water carries leaf litter to those drains and clogs them up. I blew the leaves off and concentrated heavily on blowing the drains deep and wide. Rode recently and was pleasantly NOT surprised how well the drains have been working with all the rain we've had this year. :) I keep telling people this but the have a hard time listening. Ah, well. Nothing like reinventing the f'ing wheel every few years... :p
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I can see doing it one time, really well, and being pretty much done for the season as opposed to unclogging drains until all the leaves are finally washed down the trail. We def. have some spots like that.

aero901 said:
Not sure if the situation you described could actually happen, but leaves can and do cause issues with drainages and hold extra moisture in the soil when matted over a trail. This results in a greater probability of rutting and accelerated cupping in softer soils when people don't obey trail closures (there are always a few). This is the main reason I remove leaves.
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We have pretty hard dirt/clay, which drains no matter what - although it can become saturated and soft this time of year. The always-soft areas seem to hold water no matter what.

aero901 said:
We have a local trail that is very flat, has rocky soil, is well used, and gets a lot of leaf cover in the fall. We don't usually remove the leaves from the trail and after years of accumulation and decomposition they have created areas of black thick organic dirt that get really nasty when wet and take weeks to dry as opposed to hours for the rest of the trail. This organic material sits on top of otherwise well drained rocky soil.
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A little mud doesn't bother me, there is no erosion... I would leave it alone.

aero901 said:
I just blew the leaves off a different trail systems a couple of days ago hoping to get it to dry faster after the winter thaw by allowing sun/wind to act on the soil. There were more than a few areas where the leaves had matted down and were trapping excess moisture as well as blocking drains. Areas not covered by leaves were already dry enough where rut formation wouldn't be an issue but leaf covered areas a short distance away were still very wet and soft.
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So you are probably into some labor no matter what: leaf-blowing to prevent ruts from early season users, or fixing ruts from early season users. A tough spot for sure.
Increase enforcement! ;)

So now you got me thinking that the areas uphill of any drains should be cleared along with the drains. One time, early season, really well.

Maybe I'll start there and see if that minimalistic plan can work on our trails.

I very much appreciate the feedback.
Thanks,
-F
 
#32 ·
Fleas said:
...Has anyone EVER observed such an accumulation of organic "fill" (decomposing leaves and whatnot) that it actually became a problem? I don't mean a berm of leaves. I mean where the trail gets so filled in that it basically has a new surface on top of the original one, then develops a groove, then accumulates water. A lot of people use that reason to support leaf-blowing, but it seems an unlikely eventuality.
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Yes, we have trails where leaves accumulate and turn to mud or completely block drains and low spots. One particular spot needs to be cleaned annually - it is rock armored so it requires only a few quick scrapes with a hoe to clean the mud out.

I disagree with your statement above about leaving the mud. A good trail doesn't need to be crappy and riders will tend to go around mud spots and widen the trail. F that.

I am not completely sold on leaf blowing but it has its place. I've also seen it done poorly and would prefer it not be done at all in that case.
 
#33 ·
Fleas said:
I can see doing it one time, really well, and being pretty much done for the season as opposed to unclogging drains until all the leaves are finally washed down the trail. We def. have some spots like that.

We have pretty hard dirt/clay, which drains no matter what - although it can become saturated and soft this time of year. The always-soft areas seem to hold water no matter what.

A little mud doesn't bother me, there is no erosion... I would leave it alone.

So you are probably into some labor no matter what: leaf-blowing to prevent ruts from early season users, or fixing ruts from early season users. A tough spot for sure.
Increase enforcement! ;)

So now you got me thinking that the areas uphill of any drains should be cleared along with the drains. One time, early season, really well.

Maybe I'll start there and see if that minimalistic plan can work on our trails.

I very much appreciate the feedback.
Thanks,
-F
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We try to make people aware that riding muddy trails isn't kosher and having muddy spots in a trail sends mixed messages which we want to avoid. There are already enough people who don't abide by the trail closures that we don't need to make the issue any more confusing.

Unfortunately, increasing enforcement isn't up to us since the trail closures are managed by the county. We post conditions on our website and there are signs on the property displaying the trail status which are updated frequently. The worst part is enforcement isn't something the county is capable of doing at this point because of budget cuts and under-staffing. A proactive strategy is really the only way we can mitigate these issues. Plus, the quicker the trails dry and are open the more people can enjoy them.

It took me about 2.5 hours to clear the leaves off 5 miles of trail. Fixing ruts throughout the system would have taken much much longer. Add to that any deberming needed from riding on plastic soil and that 2.5 hours is a huge time saver later in the season. I would rather be on the bike than swinging a shovel at that point. This issue is really only a problem in the spring when everyone is antsy to ride trails as it warms up but the trails are still too soft. We don't take the leaves off in the fall and it isn't a big deal other than occasionally loosing the trail.

Clearing leaves around your drains sounds like a good plan if you are having to clear the drains anyways.
 
#35 ·
aero901 said:
We try to make people aware that riding muddy trails isn't kosher and having muddy spots in a trail sends mixed messages which we want to avoid. There are already enough people who don't abide by the trail closures that we don't need to make the issue any more confusing.

Unfortunately, increasing enforcement isn't up to us since the trail closures are managed by the county. We post conditions on our website and there are signs on the property displaying the trail status which are updated frequently. The worst part is enforcement isn't something the county is capable of doing at this point because of budget cuts and under-staffing. A proactive strategy is really the only way we can mitigate these issues. Plus, the quicker the trails dry and are open the more people can enjoy them.

It took me about 2.5 hours to clear the leaves off 5 miles of trail. Fixing ruts throughout the system would have taken much much longer. Add to that any deberming needed from riding on plastic soil and that 2.5 hours is a huge time saver later in the season. I would rather be on the bike than swinging a shovel at that point. This issue is really only a problem in the spring when everyone is antsy to ride trails as it warms up but the trails are still too soft. We don't take the leaves off in the fall and it isn't a big deal other than occasionally loosing the trail.

Clearing leaves around your drains sounds like a good plan if you are having to clear the drains anyways.
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Yeah, that's what the ;) was for. Enforcing MTB trail closures is not a very high priority in the grand scheme of things.

radair said:
... riders will tend to go around mud spots and widen the trail. ...
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That is the screwed up part. There are people who won't touch mud, and there are probably the same number of people who will ride a muddy trail and rut it out.

You def. can't please everyone.

Thanks,
-F
 
#36 ·
Wow, didya ever think a leaf blower thread would go so long. Should post this on the DH/Freeride forum to give 'em a laugh! My two (more serious) cents: Here in the Sierra, in the spring, I rake a lot of the pine needles, cones (some are 18" long) and sticks off the trails, especially on the lesser used routes, because the trails are a mess otherwise. A leaf blower would be useless, as the needles are all matted up. Within a month there is already a light needle cast to help protect the trail during an uncommon summer shower. Also above about 5000' there is virtually no clay in the soil, so gooey trails are not an issue, but dust is. I find leaving too much organics just pulverizes into sawdust, so it's best to rake the heavy pine needles, and leave the fir needles in place. If you Easterners are concerned about the negative impacts of leaf blowing, just take and drag a Mcleod behind you and lightly rake a narrow path to define the trail, and keep those noisy leaf blowers out of the woods. I'm sorry, but I hate those things!
 
#39 ·
It is interesting to read about all the different conditions and tradeoffs people face in regard to leaves on trails.

Around here, leaving a thick mat of dense wet leaves causes some unexpected damage. For instance, all trails can be dry for over a week... except for under dense mats of leaves. The ground under the densely packed leaves can remain wet for weeks after a rain. These can be almost invisible to even experienced riders. On fast turns, the leaf mats can break loose and send a rider flying down the hillside, demolishing everything in their path. Then they have to climb back up onto the trail, trampling plant life once again. The leaf mats also keep soil from drying out, leading to muddy puddles that grow deeper and more permanent. Eliminating the leaves keeps the singletrack narrow and surrounding plant life intact.

In city parks that see a ton of use throughout the year, raking has proven quite effective in preventing damage to the trail and surrounding growth. We would probably leaf blow instead of rake, but very few people have leaf blowers in Pittsburgh for some reason.
 
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