what's the real world difference on the trail for the rider with all these different systems. i'm not looking for an engineering dissertation or regurgitated marketing splech, just a practical guide as what design is best applied to what use.
horst vs dw-link vs vpp vs maestro vs single pivot vs.......
vqdriver
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what's the real world difference on the trail for the rider with all these different systems. i'm not looking for an engineering dissertation or regurgitated marketing splech, just a practical guide as what design is best applied to what use.
I can't speak for all of them, just for Horst and DW Link.
For me it's all about climbing rigidity. The Horst is fine as long as it is complimented by a shock that can stiffen up or lock out by the flick of a switch.
The DW Link is superior for climbing. It barely pivots/moves while I push hard in the saddle. Adding a shock with a climbing platform helps minimally because this design doesn't need any help.
Both designs seem to offer a supple ride through their travel over the bumps and chatter.
Both designs minimize pedal feedback as they move through their travel.
For me it's all about climbing rigidity. The Horst is fine as long as it is complimented by a shock that can stiffen up or lock out by the flick of a switch.
The DW Link is superior for climbing. It barely pivots/moves while I push hard in the saddle. Adding a shock with a climbing platform helps minimally because this design doesn't need any help.
Both designs seem to offer a supple ride through their travel over the bumps and chatter.
Both designs minimize pedal feedback as they move through their travel.
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i also can comment on fsr and dw link. agree with what hawg says. however i do use propedal while on dw link simply because i like to run my shock softer than recommended. also to me another big advantage of dw link is how it tracks in tech climbs. also how easy it gets over square edge hits. fsr tends to hang and requires finer technique. i had been on fsr for 5 years and thought its great. this is my second year on dw link and its way way better imho. there is also difference how the same system is implemented to one bike and another.
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280 Posts
Pick yer poison
Look for certain phrases in ride reports and reviews;
"Awesome, supple rear suspension", "Works best with a smooth pedal stroke", "Climbs best while seated", and "Flip the shock's Pro-Pedal lever for high-effort climbs", are tipoffs that, generally, the suspension compresses while peddling.
These bikes work well in smooth, fast XC rides. The Specialized FSR-type designs.
Comments like "Loves out-of-the-saddle climbs", "We noticed some pedal kick-back", and "No need to resort to the Pro-Pedal feature", are signaling that this design extends the suspension while peddling.
These bikes climb with a bit more authority, especially for guys that like to hammer out-of-the-saddle. For the most part, these would be the 4-pivot type designs.
Look for certain phrases in ride reports and reviews;
"Awesome, supple rear suspension", "Works best with a smooth pedal stroke", "Climbs best while seated", and "Flip the shock's Pro-Pedal lever for high-effort climbs", are tipoffs that, generally, the suspension compresses while peddling.
These bikes work well in smooth, fast XC rides. The Specialized FSR-type designs.
Comments like "Loves out-of-the-saddle climbs", "We noticed some pedal kick-back", and "No need to resort to the Pro-Pedal feature", are signaling that this design extends the suspension while peddling.
These bikes climb with a bit more authority, especially for guys that like to hammer out-of-the-saddle. For the most part, these would be the 4-pivot type designs.
I think the captain hit it on the nail. The rest of what you are going to hear will be fanboi hype.
In the end they are all refined and work very well. Its up to you to decide on your demo rides which one works best for YOU, not for us.
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Owned a couple of each(currently on a Pivot Mach5) and I find this to be the opposite of what I've experienced -- at least when referring to square edged hits on climbs. Probably the thing I like least about the bike.
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Excellent posts above... I have the most time on vpp2 and the benefit is that you do not need a pedaling platform built into the shock. The design resists pedal bob very well thus making the shock able to be more responsive to smaller inputs. The one downfall is the amount of sag needed is quite particular and can be a pain to dial in.
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6,460 Posts
Nothing. A HL is not a bike, just a pivot point. Two bikes, both with a HL, can ride very, very differently. Just as two single pivot bikes. You can make almost any bike have the same anti-squat and pedaling performance as another. Check out the anti-squat numbers on Linkage Design. What you will notice is that the older bikes with a HL had much lower anti-squat numbers. Today, their numbers in most chain rings are almost exactly what you get with a dw link or a vpp link. And they can ride in a very similar way.
But honestly nobody wants to hear that as it just does not sell...
But honestly nobody wants to hear that as it just does not sell...
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280 Posts
Brilliant website (I wish I could read Spanish!), but you are correct; hard numbers like those make it difficult for the BS merchants to apply their spin.
The great thing about 4-pivot designs (DW-Link, VPP, Maestro, etc.) is the tremendous flexibility they offer in tuning the axle path, which affects just about everything else. Different makers have different philosophies and goals, so even if designs may look similar, they can ride differently. (Or for that matter, though they look different, they may still ride very similarly!)
For a simple, robust & effective rear suspension, the Santa Cruz Lightweight shows that some Old-School designs are still relevant.
Santa Cruz Superlight XC Full Suspension Reviews
Great posts in this thread. :thumbsup:
P.S. Thanks Ratt!
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Great post that speaks the truth.
I smell more _dw lawsuits!
You'll also find that designers are bringing down the anti squat in later designs so they are closer to the lower anti squat of the HL. Acceptance of latest shock tech now gives them freedom to lower anti squat and associated pedal feedback. Climbing ability is now linked to technical climbs rather than smooth climbs.
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DW band-aids the fox float the best. HL might band-aid the fox float the worst. A high SP can band-aid the float pretty well, but at the expense of some harshness while pedaling.
When you lose the float, you lose the need for the band-aid and the entire conversation about suspension starts over from scratch. I like 4bar/sp bikes with a really good shock. They're not so fun with a float though.
When you lose the float, you lose the need for the band-aid and the entire conversation about suspension starts over from scratch. I like 4bar/sp bikes with a really good shock. They're not so fun with a float though.
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257 Posts
I will agree completely that each design has its strengths and that each system can be implemented very differently. I went from a Horst link bike to a vpp years ago, it pedaled much better and was a noticeable improvement in many ways. I would have told you at the time i would never go back to a non vpp or dw link bike. Now I'm back on a Horst link bike that outperforms my last vpp bike in every category, including climbing and hammering out of the saddle. All in how it's tuned and the tweaks they make to it.
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280 Posts
Refinement
The Horst link was a fix designed to cure bad habits on some early bicycle rear-suspensions. Since then (with help from the notoriety of it's patent) the Horst link appears to have come to identify a broad spectrum of suspension layouts.
Subsequently, being called a "Horst link bike" does not doom (or bless) all of these bikes with a certain riding characteristic, any more than saying all DW link-type bikes all ride the same; mtnbiker831's observations prove that.
Some bikes have been refined in the actual geometry of the suspension, others through shock linkage & valving/gadgetry.
One Pivot makes a good point in his post; a shock absorber's idiosyncrasies should not highlight or mask a suspension's basic characteristics.
Ideally, the suspension's design & geometry alone should be the basis of a great platform.
The Horst link was a fix designed to cure bad habits on some early bicycle rear-suspensions. Since then (with help from the notoriety of it's patent) the Horst link appears to have come to identify a broad spectrum of suspension layouts.
Subsequently, being called a "Horst link bike" does not doom (or bless) all of these bikes with a certain riding characteristic, any more than saying all DW link-type bikes all ride the same; mtnbiker831's observations prove that.
Some bikes have been refined in the actual geometry of the suspension, others through shock linkage & valving/gadgetry.
One Pivot makes a good point in his post; a shock absorber's idiosyncrasies should not highlight or mask a suspension's basic characteristics.
Ideally, the suspension's design & geometry alone should be the basis of a great platform.
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4 Posts
When you say, "The one downfall is the amount of sag needed is quite particular and can be a pain to dial in." Can you expand on that? And what % of sag do you run and why?
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VPP and other chain growth designs ride really well climbing. If you are looking for flat-out downhill and neutral handling bikes, I would go with a HL (Specialized, in this case) bike every time.
Just like I HATE the Brain feature, I LOVE the feeling of the FSR bikes. I don't want the anti-squat, chain growth, weird chainstay length changing stuff going on underneath me. I'm not that good of a rider to deal with it. I just want active up, active down, active standing, active braking. If I want to hammer a climb, I just reach down. I don't want my bike to ride like crap just so I can stand and hammer without the bother of reaching down. That's just me.
The Brain sucks for me because I don't want the fork or shock deciding how to react to stuff. When I preload for a manual or for a jump or even getting over a log, I don't want to think 'Hey, there's rocks before that log, my suspension will be active' or 'This really smooth section before that jump means that I will be way up in the travel and my bike will ride like a hardtail until I hit that one root then it will get all active for .7 seconds then it will be a hardtail again'. I've had 4 Brain-equipped bikes and love the geo on every one but hated the Brain. Now that I've got a Monarch Plus on my FSR, it rolls just like I like it. Active all the time with some low speed compression, just like my fork. Imagine that.
I've ridden URT, faux-bar, walking bar, single pivot, VPP, VPP2, DW link, I Drive... I spent time on every full suspension design since 1993 (yes, the beginning!) and have settled on FSR, quite happily.
I think it has everything to do with the type of rider you are. I ride park, dh, dj, pump track, 100-milers, endurance, xc, backcountry, big mountain, river valley... and I do it all on a stump fsr and a slopestyle bike. It's taken me a long time to get here but it's good.
mk
Just like I HATE the Brain feature, I LOVE the feeling of the FSR bikes. I don't want the anti-squat, chain growth, weird chainstay length changing stuff going on underneath me. I'm not that good of a rider to deal with it. I just want active up, active down, active standing, active braking. If I want to hammer a climb, I just reach down. I don't want my bike to ride like crap just so I can stand and hammer without the bother of reaching down. That's just me.
The Brain sucks for me because I don't want the fork or shock deciding how to react to stuff. When I preload for a manual or for a jump or even getting over a log, I don't want to think 'Hey, there's rocks before that log, my suspension will be active' or 'This really smooth section before that jump means that I will be way up in the travel and my bike will ride like a hardtail until I hit that one root then it will get all active for .7 seconds then it will be a hardtail again'. I've had 4 Brain-equipped bikes and love the geo on every one but hated the Brain. Now that I've got a Monarch Plus on my FSR, it rolls just like I like it. Active all the time with some low speed compression, just like my fork. Imagine that.
I've ridden URT, faux-bar, walking bar, single pivot, VPP, VPP2, DW link, I Drive... I spent time on every full suspension design since 1993 (yes, the beginning!) and have settled on FSR, quite happily.
I think it has everything to do with the type of rider you are. I ride park, dh, dj, pump track, 100-milers, endurance, xc, backcountry, big mountain, river valley... and I do it all on a stump fsr and a slopestyle bike. It's taken me a long time to get here but it's good.
mk
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