$400 for brakeset. Hope or Shimanos?

tiSS'er · May 10, 2013

I think it is safe to say that Shimano and Hope are tops when it comes to brakes, and they go about it very differently. Hope has always been a mainstay at the top, and Shimano has made incredible leaps forward in the past few years.

I have both, and I prefer Hope. I had 2012 XTs and I really liked them initially. At the same time I had Hope M4s on another bike. I found the XTs to be supremely quiet, which was nice. I do get a small bit of noise from the Hopes, but I do live in the desert after all. Strangely, on the occasion I do ride in the rain, my Hopes are dead silent.

Anyway, my gripe with the XTs is the cam or servo wave lever. There is a rush of power early on in the travel, then the power dips and begins to ramp up. When riding in very slippery and sandy conditions, I found it hard to keep the front wheel of my 29er solidly planted. Understandably, the servo wave is what other like.

With Hopes, the power is very linear and consistent all the way to lockup. Not only does this give me better control, but I also get much better feedback from my tires through Hope brakes. I find I am faster, and more confident knowing I can gently scrub speed with the Hopes, versus the XTs which use a mechanical device to amplify the power early on. I used to like this type of brake, but since I have been on Hopes it is not something I care for.

One thing no one can argue is the precision, beauty, and quality of Hope brakes. Everything down to the lever is well thought out, and incredibly solid. Should you ever need parts for Hopes, they are dirt cheap. I once scratched a piston on my M4 being careless. $10 for all 4 new pistons, and $4 for the seals directly from Hope USA. I received them in a few days. Shimano brakes are about the cheapest looking and feeling brake I have used. Lots of plastic, a flimsy lever and pivot, wooden lever feel, mineral oil, and the reach adjust was a joke. In the year I did have some random leaking, but nothing that was too much of a cause for concern.

Buy what makes you happy.

mazspeed · May 10, 2013

006_007 said:
IMHO No modulation is the equivilant of placing a stick in your spokes (theoretically of course, dont do this as it will destroy spokes etc). Instantaneous wheel stopped. At any speed. That is no modulation, and max power?

(mazspeed) Different point made here.

I always felt that bottoming out levers was a sign of improperly adjusted lever reach, or air in the system. Or a really crappy brakeset.

(mazspeed) Bottoming out yes, going through the travel to get the desired effect to a stopping distance, no. You can look at it both ways, you need to look at it as a proper brake set-up. Obviously going through the entire travel of the lever is not a proper brake set-up, I am speaking of proper setups.

But even this is subject to personal opinion. What one person feels is appropriate access, others feel is too little or too much access.

(mazspeed) Again, proper set-up.

Again a personal opinion - I found the hopes need too much lever pull to get the "grabby" sensation that I appreciate.

(mazspeed) Yes true, but you do see far less issues with Hope brakes than say Avids or Formulas. I have seen 2 Formula brakes that at one time worked like they should, I have see maybe 25-30 that are just garbage.
Now the XT/XTR sets are very nice, super reliable and good overall. But again search the top brands on here and see what brakes have the most issues. You won't be shocked.

Another thread I have been paying close attention to is in regards to the carbon brake rotors. Lots of people mentioning they need to pull so much harder on their levers to get them to lockup.

(mazspeed) I did too. I was looking at those till I saw that the carbon makers no longer seem to address the issues and too many people are having bed in issues and poor performance. That's not more modulation, that's poor performance. That's not what I am talking about.

Is that not more modulation?

I hope I didn't make too much of a mess with this post.

mazspeed · May 10, 2013

jsilva said:
Well, I can't create modulation where there isn't any

The Hopes may in fact be better modulators, but you perceive a large amount of lever travel as more control. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, but with both brakes there is a theoretically infinite amount of pressure options between extremes (at least compared to our finite ability to control the pressure).

Now, the issue is how fine the motor skills need to be to achieve the desired modulation. There are obviously human limits to fine motor control, but there is obviously a large range of development among humans' fine motor skills (not a good or bad thing). I used to have the M665s, which had a greater amount of lever travel (no servowave), and I was immediately aware of the lesser lever travel when I got the M666s, but it was no issue. Certainly no less modulation, just adapting technique.

I should have stated what I said a "large amount" of travel. But a large amount of brake travel. Not the full throw, but the full usable brake throw. I should have made that much more clear. I would agree that "technique" is the right word for the brake you mentioned, but that should be done by the brake, not the human. What I mean is, if you're in a car, and it's brakes work in a different manner than normal cars, you would have to adjust for it, yes true, but it's the car makers responsible to build a product that you should not have to deviate from a lifetime of knowing to a completely new technique. I would say the say for bike brakes. It's really not that big of a deal and I don't mean it to be, but I feel xt/xtr's are awesome brakes, but do lack proper modulation. The servo wave has it's limitations and this just happens to be the limitation. (again in my eyes) I have a set of xt's on my wife's carbon tranny, and we both love it.

mazspeed · May 10, 2013

006_007 said:
To a large extent yes.

Not necessarily. This can be perceived 2 different ways. I will take the brake side here and say that it's the brakes job to offer proper modulation and we have to abide by the physics of the device.
There is another view which is yours, but I will let you explain that. I do see where you are coming from though.

stumpynerd · May 10, 2013

Hey guys I got the m4's for my new stumpy. I had the x2s on my old stumpy however they werent quite enough power for my weight and the steeps at 200lbs. What rotor size are you guys running on your m4s? Right now I have 183F & R. 183 in the back seems a little overkill, I put my old 160 in the rear going to give that a go soon on the trail.

sooner518 · May 10, 2013

tiSS'er said:
One thing no one can argue is the precision, beauty, and quality of Hope brakes. Everything down to the lever is well thought out, and incredibly solid. Shimano brakes are about the cheapest looking and feeling brake I have used. Lots of plastic, a flimsy lever and pivot, wooden lever feel, mineral oil, and the reach adjust was a joke.

Buy what makes you happy.

Honestly, this was a big reason I went with the Hopes. I have ridden a little bit on some XTs (no idea which model but fairly recent) and I liked the way they stopped me and the lever feel and all that, but when it came down to it, the amount of plastic was a little disconcerting. The Hopes just look and feel stout. Everything on them is metal and looks/feels top quality. I have little doubt that they will stand up against crashes onto rocks/against trees. Plus the super easy/obvious adjustability of the Hopes and the seeming ease of bleeding (havent had to do it yet) them. For me, that was worth an extra $150 for the set over the XT's.

So far, the Hopes just work and look/feel great. I have no doubt I will have them for many years.

I shortened one of my Hope hoses yesterday and called my LBS to see if they had an olive in case I broke mine. They had an olive and barb in stock no problem. Im not too worried about finding replacement parts. plus Hope in Houston has sent me replacement adapters (I accidentally ordered the wrong adapters) in a few days, no problems.

tiSS'er · May 10, 2013

sooner518 said:
Honestly, this was a big reason I went with the Hopes. I have ridden a little bit on some XTs (no idea which model but fairly recent) and I liked the way they stopped me and the lever feel and all that, but when it came down to it, the amount of plastic was a little disconcerting. The Hopes just look and feel stout. Everything on them is metal and looks/feels top quality. I have little doubt that they will stand up against crashes onto rocks/against trees. Plus the super easy/obvious adjustability of the Hopes and the seeming ease of bleeding (havent had to do it yet) them. For me, that was worth an extra $150 for the set over the XT's.

So far, the Hopes just work and look/feel great. I have no doubt I will have them for many years.

I shortened one of my Hope hoses yesterday and called my LBS to see if they had an olive in case I broke mine. They had an olive and barb in stock no problem. Im not too worried about finding replacement parts. plus Hope in Houston has sent me replacement adapters (I accidentally ordered the wrong adapters) in a few days, no problems.

I should have mentioned, you can reuse the original barb and olive when cutting hoses, no need to buy new ones

aedubber · May 10, 2013

Never been on Hopes but have heard great things about them... I had the new Saint brakes setup on my bike for downhilling , i never could get that perfect modulation but the brakes worked. Its a different style of braking you need to learn i guess ? I think you need to match up brakes with proper rotor size and make sure your brakes are bled , bedded in properly , and make sure your pads are not contaminated .

I did notice my rear brakes werent feeling the way i needed them but after replacing the pads and doing a brake bleed they were spot on . I wouldnt say there is NO modulation , but there is a certain way to modulate the brakes . Initially i wasnt impressed with the Saints when i was doing local riding but when i was using them properly at the bike parks thats when they woke up and worked . Never had an issue .

Ive always had the Avid Code R's on another downhill bike, now they had modulation but they dont have the stopping power or bite of the Saints and they would fade quickly ..

I bought some new XTs to throw on my new downhill bike that i have coming in with Icetech Rotors .. Im around 190lbs use a 203mm front rotor and a 180mm rear rotor ... Well see how they hold up , but i like the brake lever feel and adjustments from the Shimanos ... Every brake im assuming will be different but i guess its what you like , they type of riding you do , and what your happy with . :thumbsup:

aerius · May 10, 2013

tiSS'er said:
Anyway, my gripe with the XTs is the cam or servo wave lever. There is a rush of power early on in the travel, then the power dips and begins to ramp up. When riding in very slippery and sandy conditions, I found it hard to keep the front wheel of my 29er solidly planted. Understandably, the servo wave is what other like.

That was my issue with the latest XTs as well when I test rode them. I was a longtime owner of the original M755 XT which had a linear power curve and superb modulation throughout its entire range, I could easily feather the brakes even on ice & snow without locking a wheel. The current generation servowave brakes have that wonky spot you mention, I've had the Deore and ridden SLX. XT, and XTR brakes and none of them have the control of my old XTs. It took some getting used to and I had a few accidental lock-ups on my Deore in the first month or so that I owned it.

I eventually ended up with the latest Saints and Zees, for some odd reason they have better modulation than their XC counterparts even though they also use the servowave mechanism. After having for a few months, I'd say the modulation is almost as good as my old XT, not quite there but very close, and of course with way more power.

As for beauty & quality looks, yeah, Shimano's pretty lacking there except in XTR and Saint. Everything else looks utilitarian at best, they all work great but they're far from sexy.

sooner518 · May 10, 2013

tiSS'er said:
I should have mentioned, you can reuse the original barb and olive when cutting hoses, no need to buy new ones

yea i did, but i was afraid i would break the olive so i bought one just in case.

getting the barb out was a pretty big pain in the ass actually... took me about 20 minutes of pulling on it with vice grips along with using a screwdriver to open up the olive a little more. i finally got the barb to pull out.... and it actually pulled out the inner, clear plastic lining of the hose itself. at that point, i just used a razor blade to cut the plastic casing off the barb and used my cable cutters to cut my line shorter. i dunno why the barb was so hard to pull out. it looks so easy to do on the Hope video......

007 · May 10, 2013

tiSS'er said:
I should have mentioned, you can reuse the original barb and olive when cutting hoses, no need to buy new ones

Unless you snap the olive in half when trying to pry it GENTLY open to fit over braided SS lines and then you are stuck with no olive, no brakes and no riding with a cranky wife who's cranky because you're cranky that you can't ride. Ask me how I know . . . just ask.

tiSS'er · May 10, 2013

007 said:
Unless you snap the olive in half when trying to pry it GENTLY open to fit over braided SS lines and then you are stuck with no olive, no brakes and no riding with a cranky wife who's cranky because you're cranky that you can't ride. Ask me how I know . . . just ask.

I only use braided lines and there is a trick. Before cutting the line or removing the olive, locate the location of your cut. Cut the clear covering, and pull it off. Pry the olive open just a little at the split with a flat screw driver and then slide the olive down to the clear covering. Cut the hose in front of the olive, insert the barb, and you are done without ever removing the olive from the line, or having to pry it open. I despise cutting braided hoses. No matter how good your cutters, you will have a bit of fraying, making it very difficult to install the olive.

ferday · May 10, 2013

stumpynerd said:
Hey guys I got the m4's for my new stumpy. I had the x2s on my old stumpy however they werent quite enough power for my weight and the steeps at 200lbs. What rotor size are you guys running on your m4s? Right now I have 183F & R. 183 in the back seems a little overkill, I put my old 160 in the rear going to give that a go soon on the trail.

i run v2's, 203/185 (i'm 175 geared up). i personally believe there is NO such thing as overkill on rotor size if the brakes can modulate well, which most new mid-high end braking systems can achieve. i don't have a lockup problem and the change in hand fatigue on longer rides is very noticeable. there are times when i'm very glad to have the extra power/fade resistance as well...

stumpynerd · May 10, 2013

Yeah i think the m4 are super nice, I thought I had them broke in but they got a ways to go. Im getting the hope buzz noise up front and its super quite. However the back is a different story, no buzz. Love that buzz noise my old X2s made after fully broke in.

What are most people running for hopes on their 5 inch travel trial bikes and rotor size? M4 rock, however I have seen people sport m4 front x2 back. X2s out back didnt have quite the power I was looking for on my old bike.

007 · May 10, 2013

tiSS'er said:
I only use braided lines and there is a trick. Before cutting the line or removing the olive, locate the location of your cut. Cut the clear covering, and pull it off. Pry the olive open just a little at the split with a flat screw driver and then slide the olive down to the clear covering. Cut the hose in front of the olive, insert the barb, and you are done without ever removing the olive from the line, or having to pry it open. I despise cutting braided hoses. No matter how good your cutters, you will have a bit of fraying, making it very difficult to install the olive.

SON OF A B@!$H that's smart. Why didn't I think of that!?

mazspeed · May 10, 2013

stumpynerd said:
Yeah i think the m4 are super nice, I thought I had them broke in but they got a ways to go. Im getting the hope buzz noise up front and its super quite. However the back is a different story, no buzz. Love that buzz noise my old X2s made after fully broke in.

What are most people running for hopes on their 5 inch travel trial bikes and rotor size? M4 rock, however I have seen people sport m4 front x2 back. X2s out back didnt have quite the power I was looking for on my old bike.

I run 203f 180r both V4's on my HD. 180f 180r on my SLR with V2 front and x2 rear.

006_007 · May 10, 2013

007 said:
Unless you snap the olive in half when trying to pry it GENTLY open to fit over braided SS lines and then you are stuck with no olive, no brakes and no riding with a cranky wife who's cranky because you're cranky that you can't ride. Ask me how I know . . . just ask.

OK, how do ya know?

006_007 · May 10, 2013

tiSS'er said:
I despise cutting braided hoses. No matter how good your cutters, you will have a bit of fraying, making it very difficult to install the olive.

Not sure if there is something special about hopes stainless braided lines, but I have cut several braided lines (for fuel and hydraulics) using a zip wheel/dremel and never have any fraying?

Dictatorsaurus · May 17, 2013

I was considering the Hopes or Shimanos and after reading this thread I'm going to sell all my Avid Elixir brakes and go with hopes.

ruscle · May 17, 2013

Dictatorsaurus said:
I was considering the Hopes or Shimanos and after reading this thread I'm going to sell all my Avid Elixir brakes and go with hopes.

Very good decision, you won't regret it.

$400 for brakeset. Hope or Shimanos?

tiSS'er

mazspeed

mazspeed

mazspeed

stumpynerd

sooner518

tiSS'er

aedubber

aerius

sooner518

007

tiSS'er

ferday

stumpynerd

007

mazspeed

006_007

006_007

Dictatorsaurus

ruscle

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