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Need Wider XC Rims, about 22mm internally

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CSPRINGS

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I weigh 160, ride aggressive XC and have been riding MAVIC 517, 222, and the Disc x139 (entry level Mavic without eyelets) . Never had a problem with rim failure even though I love couple foot drops in the rocks max on average is about 3feet. I recently have been riding 2.5 WTB Weirwolves and love the fatty! The above referenced rims are all approx 17mm internal rim width and approx 22mm external rim width with rim weights approx 350 to about 400.

I am building a new wheelset and am looking for a internal rim width of perhaps 22 to 24mm so the 2.5 WTBs( which are true 2.5's) dont squirm/roll on these somewhat narrow rims which were likely designed for 2.1 tire max. I also dont need a FR or DH rim weights. Has anyone already identified the options with a spreadsheet file or the like?

I would love a 22mm internal rim width that still weighs as cloose to 400g and with the reliable strength of the Mavic 222,517,x139's. I really dont need a 580g rim but the 22mm width dimension may from a metallurgy and dimensional perspective be the lowest reasonable weitht available with hi quality eyeleted rims.

Your comments will be greatly appreciated. WHat we all need is the spreadsheet of dimensions, weights, and prices to consolidate this dilemma.

Thanks
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Thanks, I will ck into those rims, the issue is not fit. It is whether the rims are suffciently wider than 17mm inside to inside so these big casing / wide tires are more stable on the rim in turns and at high speed on baby heads and larger rocks. The wobbling / roll effect.
 
#5 ·
CSPRINGS said:
I would love a 22mm internal rim width that still weighs as cloose to 400g and with the reliable strength of the Mavic 222,517,x139's.
Click to expand...
That's just flat out not gonna happen. 400g is in the range of 17mm rims only. The industry has had trouble producing a 19mm disc only rim that is less than 500g nevermind 22mm. 22mm is going to run you closer to 550g and a good example might be a Mavic F219 (or whatever they are calling it this year).
 
#7 ·
B R H said:
They are close to 24 mm (outer) and weigh under 370 grams each.
Click to expand...
24mm outer usually mean 16-17mm inside width.

Ambrosio CC24 Width: 24mm outside, 16mm inside
Velocity VXC Width: 23mm outside, 16mm inside
Velocity Synergy Width: 23mm outside, 17mm inside
Sun Singletrack Width: 31mm outside, 25mm inside (oh baby)
 
#8 ·
CSPRINGS said:
I weigh 160, ride aggressive XC and have been riding MAVIC 517, 222, and the Disc x139 (entry level Mavic without eyelets) . Never had a problem with rim failure even though I love couple foot drops in the rocks max on average is about 3feet. I recently have been riding 2.5 WTB Weirwolves and love the fatty! The above referenced rims are all approx 17mm internal rim width and approx 22mm external rim width with rim weights approx 350 to about 400.

I am building a new wheelset and am looking for a internal rim width of perhaps 22 to 24mm so the 2.5 WTBs( which are true 2.5's) dont squirm/roll on these somewhat narrow rims which were likely designed for 2.1 tire max. I also dont need a FR or DH rim weights. Has anyone already identified the options with a spreadsheet file or the like?

I would love a 22mm internal rim width that still weighs as cloose to 400g and with the reliable strength of the Mavic 222,517,x139's. I really dont need a 580g rim but the 22mm width dimension may from a metallurgy and dimensional perspective be the lowest reasonable weitht available with hi quality eyeleted rims.

Your comments will be greatly appreciated. WHat we all need is the spreadsheet of dimensions, weights, and prices to consolidate this dilemma.

Thanks
Click to expand...
You are dreaming. It is not going to happen with the current rim technologies. You are looking at a 500g+ rim, and more like 550g+.

I use up to 2.6/2.7" tires on VCX rims (22 mm outside) without issues.

If it is the Weirwolfs that are squirming on you it may not be the rim. I find their tread to be VERY squirmy on hardpack and other firm surfaces. Great in sand and other dry soft stuff.

BTW the WW 2.5's casing is the same width as the 2.4 WTB tires and the tread is about the same width as the Motoraptor 2.4.
 
#9 ·
Those must be heavy rims?

Stan's spec is actually 24.4 outside, and I did measure them but I can't remember what the numbers were. It seems to me they ended up being a solid 5 mm wider than a Mavic X317. They look huge in comparison. Tires mount easily and the bead locks with authority with Stan's rims... very nice. The finish quality of my set wasn't great, but I think it was just my bad luck. I don't know if they would stand up to drops or other similar abuse although I rode them fairly hard last week and they seem solid. I'm sure they won't take direct hits to the rim very well, but that's what big tires are for.
 
#10 ·
I'm stoked with my 519's

KgB said:
I just built up a pair of 519's with weirwolf 2.5's.
I like them,the heavier weight over 517's is negligable.
Pricepoint has them 2 for 70.00
Click to expand...
I've been running a set of 519's for a few months now. So far great and I've done some silly things that should have dented them with no damage.

I think they're 21mm internal width (25mm outside width) and about 460-480g each.

Oh, and they're easy to get tyres on and off which several sun's aren't.
 
#12 ·
fsrxc said:
Would the Sun Rhyno Lites be an option? I think the originals are ~27mm, new XL model ~29mm (both outside measurement). Might be a *bit* heavy for XC but very durable I've heard...
Click to expand...
Rhyno Lites are not light. At about 550-570g they are light only compared to the original Rhyno that weighed more than 800g. There are also stronger rims at the same weight than the Rhyno Lite.

The original poster is wanting a wider rim around 400g.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Rim Dilemma - continued

:rolleyes: I am running 2.5's on rims which at 17mm inside to inside so approx 21 mm outside to outside. These Weirwolfs are pretty light weight perhaps 600g, and have thin sidewalls which undoubtedly increase the squirm tremendously, but allow for a fattie that does not weigh as much as a DH tire.

I like to rum lower than average PSI for increased traction perhaps 25 to 28 front and rear. I notice that the tire currently is pretty squirmy at speed on babyheads and rough rocky terrain. Were one to grab the tire and wiggle it on the rim one could see how it wiggles on the rim.

When airing up to around 30 and 35 PSI (front and back) one cannot wiggle it nearly as much while it is on the same rim. The tire does ride noticeably stiffer , is less squirmy ( tracks better), give up traction in climbing rough stuffs well as in loose turns which can get a bit scarier.

Although I do not recall the physics involved with pressurized round systems, I was hoping that someone had already lived through this conundrum and switched a single variable - namely internal rim width - and could provide a technical and well reasoned personal experience.

The 519's should have a 19mm inside width since that is how MAVIC names their rims this diff in width would be immaterial. One would have to switch up to about a 21mm inside width to evaluate the rim width variable and use the same tire and PSI's for comparison.

Many posters are not aware of the inside width. A 17mm inside width would have about a 22mm outside width. A 21 mm ( for example 521's,721'swidth would likelty have a 25 or 26mm outside. Rynolites have approx 22mm inside with approx 27 outside widths. The Sun singletracks ( I have my notes at home) are about 23mm inside with 30mm outsides. The key figure is inside widths NOT outside widths.

Weights per manufacturer advertisements ( are these realistic?):
Most 17mm insiders, claim weights of about 400 - 450g
Most 21mm insiders, claim weights of about 550 - 600gs

I wonder if the sensitive, in tune rider, could notice acceleration and overall weight differences if the only variable changed was the weight of the rim from 425 to 600gs?

Perhaps I will eventually be the expert here. Nevertheless I am riding at the higher PSI's stated earlier and will drop 2 more PSI and will see…but I still haven't decided what to do about the new possible wider rims.

Cheers and keep the technical posts coming…J
 
#14 ·
Noticing weight difference.

Regarding noticing a difference in weight of 175 grams per rim, I would have to say definitely YES! How much of a difference it makes in terms of speed, momentum, etc., is another story, but you would notice the wheels feel noticeably more nimble.

I'll measure the inside dimension of Stan's rims again next time I swap tires. I bet they are close to your desired 22 mm.
 
#15 ·
Those Velocity VXC and Synergy rims are around 425g and 440g respectively, so pretty light (too light for me). I haven't weighed the CC24s, and have heard different weight claims, 455g and 490g. So all but the Singletracks are XC rims (actually those are now my XC rims until a good 500g rim is available).

The bead on most rims is 2-3mm per side, much more on rims with anti-pinchflat features. That knocks 4-6mm off the inside width. If Stans are 24.4 outer, I would expect 18mm inside, unless it's a disc-specific model with curved sidewalls, and you measured from the widest point. For a 22mm inside width like CSPRINGS wants, he would need one with an advertized width of 28mm+. There's no way he'll find that at 400g or even 500g. More like 570g minimum for an eyeleted model.
 
#16 ·
I also have an old mavic 321 front rim which I ride on occasionally. I was running it with 2.1-2.2" tyres and the difference in feel is huge compared to a skinny XC type rim.

I attribute the difference in feel, not to the tyres rolling around less on the rims (they undoubtedly do roll around much less) but to the squarer profile the tyres get which lets your use the corners much more. I really noticed more traction on the transition into and out of corners. That lean point when you normally aren't quite on the edging blocks became a whole lot more defined and positive feeling.

I'm currently riding mavic F519's and even though in measurement they're closer to the sun DS1-xc's I was running, in feel and traction they feel more like the 321. I was surprised such a little difference (3mm in internal width) made such a big difference.

BTW, I weighed one of my 519's in the plastic stretch wrap. 480g. The wrap was maybe 10-15g making the rim pretty close to the claimed weight of 460g.
 
#17 ·
CSPRINGS said:
I wonder if the sensitive, in tune rider, could notice acceleration and overall weight differences if the only variable changed was the weight of the rim from 425 to 600gs?
Click to expand...
Some people will argue that those who say they can feel a 100g difference are deluding themselves, but I absolutely notice the difference between my two main wheelsets, both similar weights except for the rims, Velocity Synergys on one set and Sun Singletracks on the other, which combined weigh 300g+ more.

I was able to experiment recently with a set of Racing Ralph 2.25s on both wheelsets at the same time. Instant difference even with the same tires. I can feel the added weight of the heavy rims, especially on certain local trails that have lots of low speed technical spots. I didn't measure, but the same tires on the different rims have a completely different profile, easily seen just by eyeballing them. I personally like the less-rounded profile a wider rim gives. It doesn't feel as squirmy and gets better traction.

One could argue that the increased traction from the wider profile also increases rolling resistance, and that is what I noticed, but I don't think so. Where I felt it most was cranking hard after rock gardens from near standstill speeds. I would recommend that you pick up some DH tubes to see if you notice ithe weight yourself, which are much heavier than 125g light XC tubes, but the last time I mentioned that comparison, the rolling resistance counter-arguement was brought up. It may be valid in that instance.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Continued ...

Thanks BRH, Dougal, and Fonseca

Your informative posts are precisely what I was hoping for. All raised interesting points. I am a bit surprised that one can feel / see the diff between 17mm inside vs 19mm rims given this represents only a 12% increase, the human eye is in fact very discriminating and some people have a great feel for their rides and are very in tune regarding how their bike handles when thay change only a single variance - interesting indeed!

The excellent suggestion regarding DH TUBES…ouch!! I now recall that when I originally bought the Enduro someone had downhill tubes installed and the bike felt dissapointly sluggish compared to my KONA dually ( 517's Hugi 240's and the exceptional Panaracer Fire XC 2.1 Kevlars). Upon removing these fat tubes and installing normal ones - VOILAH - the bike came to life. I recently added some tire sealant and really didn't notice and change in nimbleness. I do not know how much heavier the DH tubes are compared to normal ones but I really don't want to add that additional weight back to my wheelsets so that was an INCREDIBLY HELPFUL COMMENT - thanks!

Hmmm I was chatting with my engineering friend last nite who is a technical freak , a great friend, and very thorough _ ( excepting the regular Quality Comtrol Meetings - inside joke) and he too raised the concern that SIDEWALL redgidity, rim width , and the fatty tires at low PSI all contribute their share to the Squirminess.

The current bottom line is that I do not race, I ride for the joy of the ride and the respectful homage of mother earth, it is all about relaxation, rejuvination, and wilderness enjoyment, not placing first. Although I am wayyy beyount 20 I can outride most of that age category so I feel good about that anyway.

At this point I am inclines to try to let just 2 or 3 PSI out of the 30 and 35 PSI I am running and see if that is a happy medium. FYI the reason I am trying to nail down this issue is that one of my buds is gonna build my new wheelsets when the hubs come in and the last variable is the RIM DECISION. I love rocky stuff and have been jonseing for faster engagement hubs and I scored an incredible price on them Chris Kings. I am confident that I will be able to tweak them so that they will be nearly as silent as the fabulous HUGI 240's I own and the boat anchor Shimano Deore 555 I also ride.

I may simply opt for the MAVIC DISC 17mm ( XC717: - 400g) or 19mm (XC719: 460g) inside to inside rims, since they are still light weight and I think they offer reliability and high quality. The Big rim I was also considering but moving away from are the SUN singletracks which weigh in round 570 to 600g's but they will likely put too much additional weight on the outside of the wheel and I do not want to go back to sluggish wheelsets.

Anyway I will eagerly watch for your most excellent posts to follow and continue this discussion. Thanks Again
 
#19 ·
F219 now = XM321

Homebrew said:
That's just flat out not gonna happen. 400g is in the range of 17mm rims only. The industry has had trouble producing a 19mm disc only rim that is less than 500g nevermind 22mm. 22mm is going to run you closer to 550g and a good example might be a Mavic F219 (or whatever they are calling it this year).
Click to expand...
Just got a set of these built with CK ISO disc hubs and 14/15g spokes. Weight for both wheels with rim tape and Hope skewers is 4.79lbs (on the UPS scale). FWIW... I've been on the F219 for over a year now and they have been very reliable rims. My old ones were laced to XT hubs with 14g spokes and were quite heavy. I'm looking forward to getting some time in on the new ones.
 
Discussion starter · #20 · (Edited)
SINGA :
XM321 's ? what was the actual weight of the rims alone ? MAVIC lists them at 570g each.

I have been drooling over faster engagement but alas the hubs won't be in for another couple weeks , after my dually vacation rides in UTARD. :(

My current Disc wheelset: ( no tubes or tires) 32 hole X139, 14 gauge DT's, alloy nippers on Deore (Boat anchors) 555's, ready to ride with rotors and velox rim tape, excluding QR's on the US POSTAL digital scale was 6 lbs 10.7 OZ , a.k.a. 6.7 lbs. Nearly 2x the weight of my non disc 517 shown below.

My current non disc wheelset: ( no tubes or tires) 32 hole X517, 15 / 16 DT spokes, alloy nippers, HUGI 240's ( excellent hubs) , with velox rim tape ready to ride weighed 3 lbs 4.0 OZ on US POSTAL scale - a.k.a. 3.25 lbs.

CSPRINGS
 
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