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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
52 years young.
155 LTHR (highest HR recorded this year was 169)
Trying to do some dedicated Z2 on trainer. Per Friel, he recommends using lower end of Z2 HR (for me the low end is 126bpm).

On trainer, even with "fast cadence" (for me) to get HR up, my watts end up being mid/upper Z3.

Question is:
1) Does anyone else have this issue?
2) What do you do for Z2 training - HR or Power?
3) What do u think I should do?
 

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Yes, I've had this issue in the past. Some people's power zones work better with, or are more aligned with, Coggan's HR zones. Do a search for him and check out his zones. His HR zones are about a half of a zone or so lower than Friel's vis-a-vis their power zones. They might match up better with yours. So you might not have to work as hard to get to Coggan's HR Zone 2, and still be in Power Zone 2.
 

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Fat-tired Roadie
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You mention your max HR. Does your method of setting your LT HR involve it? How are you setting your HR and zones?

How long are you waiting for your HR to come up? Have you seen this problem over multiple training sessions?

Do your power zones feel right? If you can knock out 2x20 at FTP like it ain't no thing, I think I know which of your sets of zones is off. :) Also, if when you're riding in Zone 3 according to power, you could spend an hour in that zone and carry on a decent conversation with someone else.

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
^^^
Setting LTHR by average HR in last half of FTP test (On Trainer). I just mentioned max HR (good catch) so when someone seen my low LTHR they would not say I did not go hard enough on FTP test. I probably should have left out the LTHR #'s

But admittedly have not done a FTP test in awhile - last season consisted of lots of mtb'ing - working on getting legs in trainer shape now (steady state efforts). That slowed down by a case of plantar fasciitis in addition to changes made by a bike fit.

HR stayed there in low Z2 for last ride with power in L3 for 1.5 hrs, and yes the 1.5hr ride in L3 was fatiguing with my little engine.

"Have you seen this problem over multiple training sessions?"
Yes, on road my HR always seems to be one zone lower than power level. Now that you have me thinking about it,,,you may be on to something with my FTP test being on trainer and going by "feel" for SST/FTP efforts on road

I "knew" this existed before but just road by power and "feel", the only reason I bring this up was to try some dedicated L2 training (for once - always SST prior) during Holiday time off....and Friel's recommendation to train Z2 by HR.

Doing some searches online (plus responses on this post),,,I'm not the only one who has an issue with Friel's Z2 HR work out recommendation's. I will try more of a Coggan's HR Z2 this morning on the roller's.
 

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Fat-tired Roadie
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Since you haven't done a FTP test in a while, that would be my next step. You may be stronger now. :)

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LDC is ded,deth by trollz
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Since you haven't done a FTP test in a while, that would be my next step. You may be stronger now. :)

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When i first saw the post i immediately thought...Your training is working you are making more power at a lower hr. But i had no way to explain it.

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Andrw & Lane
You are right, I am overdue for FTP test. With my experience earlier in year with FTP test on Kinetic trainer, is that I am at low end of % for 20m test - based on recovery and repeatability.
20m test = 260w and I ended up with trial and error settling on 220w (85%) vs starting out at 247w (95%). Yes, I know that's low, but again on how I recover and training time i invest (5-6 hrs a week, based on how I feel - recovery)...
I can bury myself in 20 min test and Strava Segments. I don't want people head hunting me, but I do well on popular segments. (bang! my visitor count will go up!)
Basically, that's why I am trying to do some Z2 training for the 1st time, upping hrs to try to get more endurance and make my motor bigger.

Today's roller ride went better with lower end of Coggan HR Z2 (69% of LTHR vs 81% for Friel) "pretty much" lining up with lower end of Friel L2 (55% of FTP) and getting a solid 2 hrs in (that's a lot of ride time for me - my max, now that I think about it)
 

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Fat-tired Roadie
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So the way I read that, you tested your FTP and then set it to some other number you felt like using.

A lot of the other stuff you're talking about sounds fine. But using a lower FTP than your test dictates seems odd to me. Threshold is, by definition, hard. A 20 minute effort above threshold is hard, and requires some recovery.

Doing something to lower your workload if it's a bit much is also totally reasonable. I think I'd choose easier workouts or do fewer hard ones in a week. Once you get through a good base cycle, you might even find you can do a heavier training load.

You mention that a two hour ride is a lot for you. How many hours per week are you doing? What kind of racing do you do?

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
^^^
So the way I read that, you tested your FTP and then set it to some other number you felt like using.
What would you set it at and how?

"In my experience, FTP is rarely as high as 95% of 20-minute maximal power. 88-93% is not an uncommon range." Alex Simmon's
Alex's Cycle Blog: The seven deadly sins

You mention that a two hour ride is a lot for you. How many hours per week are you doing?
5-7 hrs a week, not counting lifting and recovery spins/warm ups for lifting.

What kind of racing do you do?
I did one race last year (1 hr sport), otherwise I challenge segments
 

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Fat-tired Roadie
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I've done fine using 95% of a 20-minute maximal effort. I've also done fine with the protocol where you do two eight minute efforts, average them, and use 90%. I did Zwift race two days ago and he suggested raising power afterwards; I worked out today with the new zones and it went fine. Hard, but it's supposed to be, and it was doable.

I like that that blog listed a bunch of ways to calculate one's FTP. I think they should generally agree. If something gives a wildly different result, that implies a problem. And some of the methods Alex lists are really easy for people who typically ride with a power meter to keep an eye on. Also, I think my power zones, heart rate zones, and PE should agree, at least when I'm fresh and the effort lasts over a minute.

Anyway, if I tested at 260 W for 20 minutes, I'd go ahead with 247 W, at least for a while. It doesn't sound to me like zones set based on that felt wrong, necessarily - was it that you were tired all the time? Or did you feel like you weren't recovering well within the workout? Both?

So you do about the same hours I do, or more, even. Strava has me 205 hours in this year. I was still under 300 in 2014, a remarkably stable and childless year for me. I struggled with Friel for a while before deciding that he just doesn't scale very well for someone not able or not willing to do a ton of hours. Though if you're finding two hours in Zone 2 challenging, it might not hurt to keep on keeping on with a sort-of traditional base.

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