[Halfabrain]

Anyone running this setup?

Have been riding the Vigilante 2.5 (Light/High Grip)/Trail Boss 2.4(Light/Fast Rolling) combo and love it pretty much all year round for aggressive trail/enduro/all round riding.

We're finally getting some rain around here and I'm finding the Trail Boss is just not keeping things planted on the wet... My skills have been improving(?) and so I'm faster and pulling off harder descents since I started using this setup.

Wonder if a Judge 2.4 out back will be a good solution for wet riding? I like the Vigilante up front though it looks like the Verdict is more often paired with the Judge.

I have about a 45 minute ride on road/fire road to get to the good stuff, so something like the Convict will be too slow.

Thanks for the input! And no, I'm not interested in switching back to Maxxis.

 

[Cary]

Judge is a beefier tire than the Vigilante and really made to pair with the Convict or Verdict in the front. Consider running a Vigilante 2.3 rear. The 2.6 trail boss has bigger knobs, but is really heavy. I have been running the Vigilante with a Vittoria Martello rear and found it a good match, but don’t ride in any real mud.

 

[Skulls Road]

I love the judge so much I run a verdict just to use it.

 

[ocnLogan]

As long as you’re aware that the Judge is a super beastly tire, and are ok with that, then I think you’ll be fine. The suggestion for the older 2.3in Vigilante in the rear is also a pretty good idea if you think the judge might be a bit too much, and want to stick with WTB tires front and rear.

The vigilante is a great tire. I used a light/high grip in 2.6in width for about a year, before switching to the Verdict. Personally I find the Verdict better in every way, but that might be my personal setup.

The vigilante 2.6, actually measured almost exactly 2.75” knob to knob. And I had 29mm rims, making the tire rounder than perhaps ideal. The Verdict in its 2.5in width is noticeably better in the loose to me, but again, some of that could be that it is better suited to my rims.

I’ve not tried the judge quite yet. It’s on the list of potential tires to try, but the last time I needed a rear tire they weren’t in stock. I’m actually using a Michelin Wild Enduro rear in the back right now. And I feel that pairs nicely with both the verdict, and judge (I’m still using the same rear tire across both those front tires).

 

[LVLBTY]

Subscribed - I've been looking at this exact setup as a change from dhf dhr.

 

[slimat99]

Judge is more a dry tire. It will work fine in soft wet but it's really a dry rocky tire. I would not do the combo you're thinking about because the front won't be able to keep up with the rear. I've paired the judge with other relatively high traction tires like the Onza Aquila and I had to be mindful to not push the front as hard as the back was encouraging me to. I would pair the Judge with a number of tires but nothing in the mid to fast rolling categories. Pair it with other high traction, slow rollers.

 

[Skulls Road]

Judge is more a dry tire. It will work fine in soft wet but it's really a dry rocky tire. I would not do the combo you're thinking about because the front won't be able to keep up with the rear. I've paired the judge with other relatively high traction tires like the Onza Aquila and I had to be mindful to not push the front as hard as the back was encouraging me to. I would pair the Judge with a number of tires but nothing in the mid to fast rolling categories. Pair it with other high traction, slow rollers.

It's the exact opposite. Dry rocky I'd use a Trail Boss or Vigilante, keeping with WTB. Judge absolutely excels in wet slop. The day I threw mine on I was forced to trackstand on a steep wet climb because the rider in front of me slipped out. Once he got out of the way I put the power down and it just hooked up. It's the same with wet corners too.

 

[slimat99]

It's the exact opposite. Dry rocky I'd use a Trail Boss or Vigilante, keeping with WTB. Judge absolutely excels in wet slop. The day I threw mine on I was forced to trackstand on a steep wet climb because the rider in front of me slipped out. Once he got out of the way I put the power down and it just hooked up. It's the same with wet corners too.

I didn't mean to say it's a bad wet tire, just that it's dry biased. All tires with broad lugs and prominent sips are designed for harder surfaces. The sips provide traction on surfaces that can't be penetrated, and the broad lug size keeps them from squirming on surfaces that can't be penetrated. Just because lugs are broader than ideal for penetrating soft surfaces doesn't mean they won't dig and provide great traction, but it doesn't change the fact that the intention of the design was to work well on hard surfaces that can't be penetrated. The Judge is a dry biased tire like the DHR, DHF for example.

 

[ocnLogan]

I didn't mean to say it's a bad wet tire, just that it's dry biased. All tires with broad lugs and prominent sips are designed for harder surfaces. The sips provide traction on surfaces that can't be penetrated, and the broad lug size keeps them from squirming on surfaces that can't be penetrated. Just because lugs are broader than ideal for penetrating soft surfaces doesn't mean they won't dig and provide great traction, but it doesn't change the fact that the intention of the design was to work well on hard surfaces that can't be penetrated. The Judge is a dry biased tire like the DHR, DHF for example.

I think it will depend on what people mean by "wet".

Wet sticky clay would probably pack up the Judge, as its tread pattern isn't "exceptionally" open (although it is definitely fairly open, being an aggressive tire). But if your wet is more "pine needle soup", and not very sticky (which is what it is in my area of the PNW), then this is definitely going to excel in it.

Out of curiosity, what other rear focused aggressive tires do well in the wet?

It seems like "most" rear tires that people actually use when pedaling would fall into the category of the the DHR/Judge being on the most extreme end of the spectrum. With only really aggressive (almost front "only") tires like the Shorty/Verdict being better in the true mud. I just don't think I've ever seen anyone ride those on the rear. You see the Magic Mary used in the rear occasionally, and the new Big Betty, but the Big Betty is actually even more "packed" with knobs than the judge.

Photos of the three most aggressive "rear" tires I can think of off the top of my head. For reference. Looks like the Judges tread pattern is super similar to the DHR, just with more tread depth and a bit burlier blocks.

Judge:

Big Betty:

DHR2

 

[slimat99]

@Ocn:

Sure. Wet roots for example a dry biased tire will do very well with because it's a surface that can't be penetrated. Wet slabs, wet anything that can't be penetrated dry biased tires in soft compounds are great. People tend to love the DHR in the wet, but when it's real soft it's not the best for the reasons you mentioned. I would love the Judge on wet roots and rocks, and it's going to penetrate soil just fine, but like you said, it's going to pack up. Magic mary is a great rear tire. Basically anything that spaces out semi sharp lugs is going to work great. The "magic" in the magic mary is how it uses dry rocky style shoulder lugs with mud shedding sharper center lugs which is supposed to create a tire that can do it all. It can, there are just much better tires when dry rocky is the default. I'm not up to speed on the best soft soil biased tires because I'm in Colorado. Mich dh22 comes to mind.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a pattern like the judge in wet muddy. I was just pointing out to the OP that there are better options when you're looking for something specifically for such conditions. I stand by not pairing it with the front he's thinking about. It would create a little tail wagging the dog feel. I was pretty surprised by how I felt the tail wagging the dog even with a fairly aggressive front tire that can be pushed hard. The judge offers a LOT of grip. It should be paired with a front that can balance that well. I guess WTB likes it with the verdict. Anything less aggressive would be a bad match IMO. Speaking of the verdict, that would be a great front/rear combo for the OP. They even make a wet version with taller lugs. If the judge came in a lighter casing I would double up on it. THere's nothing rear specific about the Judge really. The DHR is one of my fav front tires. I would consider double judges just like double DHR's which I run often. Prominent braking sips are awesome up front too. Alternating horizontal and vertical sipping works great both ends. I want to try versus tires. If I were to design a tire it would look a lot like theirs. Classic design that works both ends. The judge is pretty similar to versus' pattern.

 

[Jayem]

I don't understand how you will achieve justice.

 

[slimat99]

I don't understand how you will achieve justice.

You'll have to ask WTB's marketing department I guess? At least they didn't start listing different crimes too. I would hate to love the Judge/pedaphile.

 

[slimat99]

Here's PB's take on the Judge. I personally don't see it as Rear Specific or the Verdict as front specific. I kind of think WTB is just chasing Maxxis marketing with the DHF/DHR. Just as the minions can be doubled up either way, so can the Judge/verdict. While PB calls both these tires dry, the verdict looks like it would do really well in softer conditions. I would go verdict over judge in the back if sticky dirt, and mud were things I wanted to improve upon.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-judge-and-verdict-wtbs-most-aggressive-dry-condition-tire-combo.html

 

[Jayem]

Here's PB's take on the Judge. I personally don't see it as Rear Specific or the Verdict as front specific. I kind of think WTB is just chasing Maxxis marketing with the DHF/DHR. Just as the minions can be doubled up either way, so can the Judge/verdict. While PB calls both these tires dry, the verdict looks like it would do really well in softer conditions. I would go verdict over judge in the back if sticky dirt, and mud where things I wanted to improve upon.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-judge-and-verdict-wtbs-most-aggressive-dry-condition-tire-combo.html

There is a significant braking difference when trying to run a DHF in the rear.

 

[slimat99]

There is a significant braking difference when trying to run a DHF in the rear.

For sure but that doesn't mean the DHF isn't a great rear tire. The DHF might be the best tire ever made for loose cornering. Double DHF's is a drifter's dream. For sure when you want strong braking in the back there are better options. I've cut braking sips in the smooth center lugs before. That def adds some bite on hard surfaces.

 

[Jayem]

For sure but that doesn't mean the DHF isn't a great rear tire

I guess, if you don't need to brake.

 

[ungod]

The DHF might be the best tire ever made for loose cornering. Double DHF's is a drifter's dream.

That was true 7-8 years ago, but tires have come a long way since then. Unless you only run maxxis tires... In that case, yeah, that's about as good as it gets.

 

[slimat99]

That was true 7-8 years ago, but tires have come a long way since then. Unless you only run maxxis tires... In that case, yeah, that's about as good as it gets.

More like 20 years ago. I'm not saying it's the best tire even in maxxis' line up. It has tunnel vision on loose cornering. When talking about loose cornering, it doesn't get any better. There are tires that grip better as you lean providing a larger range of traction in the corners, but when talking about drifting then hooking up, nothing beats the DHF. Nothing. The DHF is still with us because of how controllable the drift is. Those that don't get the DHF hate the "drift zone". They call it vague, and loose. Those that get it, get it. Braking is let's say, mediocre. It's an afterthought of a pattern that was designed for aggressive cornering with a focus on reining it back in when oversteer or two wheel drifts happen. Anyone that drifts gets the DHF, and knows it's top dog at it. You want strong breaking, climbing, grip while transitioning to shoulder lugs... there are plenty of better patterns. You want to play a game of slide and catch, you're not going to beat the DHF.

 

[ungod]

More like 20 years ago. I'm not saying it's the best tire even in maxxis' line up. It has tunnel vision on loose cornering. When talking about loose cornering, it doesn't get any better. There are tires that grip better as you lean providing a larger range of traction in the corners, but when talking about drifting then hooking up, nothing beats the DHF. Nothing. The DHF is still with us because of how controllable the drift is. Those that don't get the DHF hate the "drift zone". They call it vague, and loose. Those that get it, get it. Braking is let's say, mediocre. It's an afterthought of a pattern that was designed for aggressive cornering with a focus on reining it back in when oversteer or two wheel drifts happen. Anyone that drifts gets the DHF, and knows it's top dog at it. You want strong breaking, climbing, grip while transitioning to shoulder lugs... there are plenty of better patterns. You want to play a game of slide and catch, you're not going to beat the DHF.

I'll agree that nothing else slips and then grips like a minion but I had no idea that people thought that was a good thing.

Since literally every other company on the planet has copied and even improved on the minion edge knobs they are far from the best loose cornering tire on the market. My current Edge 22 is a perfect example of a tire that corners much better on loose with no need to slip first. The Hellkat before that was an improvement over the minions. Most of the entire Michelin lineup corners better than minions on loose. Magic Mary.... I can go on...

I'd say I miss the drift, but I don't. And my strava times have only gone down since I got off the minions!

 

[slimat99]

I'll agree that nothing else slips and then grips like a minion but I had no idea that people thought that was a good thing.

Since literally every other company on the planet has copied and even improved on the minion edge knobs they are far from the best loose cornering tire on the market. My current Edge 22 is a perfect example of a tire that corners much better on loose with no need to slip first. The Hellkat before that was an improvement over the minions. Most of the entire Michelin lineup corners better than minions on loose. Magic Mary.... I can go on...

I'd say I miss the drift, but I don't. And my strava times have only gone down since I got off the minions!

Patterns that use transition lugs like the edge 22 will not do oversteer moves like the DHF. That's why transition lugs exist, to remove the snap oversteer nature of a prominent void between center and shoulder. If you prefer transition lugs that's great. I like patterns with transition lugs too. I would say anyone that doesn't love playing with the oversteer nature of the DHF should move on and never look back.