[Boise_pedaler]

Has anyone had the complete Wobble Naught bike fit done at Dowtown George's? I recently had my cleats installed after some knee problems and I have to be honest here, I thought the guy that did the fitting was a JERK! The guy spoke to me as if I were some ignorant kid who couldn't possibly comprehend anything he were trying to tell me. He would tell me about Pro riders traveling from around the world seeking out his expertise and I am simply a recreational rider. C'mon!

I think I really need a complete fit, but Im not sure what the total expense will be if I have to buy a new crank or stem etc. And, I dont think I could sit through an entire fitting with this guy. Did I catch him on a bad day or is he always like that? Any feed back is appreciated.

 

[zebdi]

Not worth it?

I recently read that these high tech custom fittings are not worth the price for mountain bikes. For road bikes, I suppose they are warrented if you have the money or are super competitive/picky. But for mountain bikes, you just need to be close. Playing around with stem, seat, handlebar settings may do a lot more for you. I can guarantee you that if I went into Georges with my Heckler, they would say it is too small for me and I need a larger frame with a longer stem. BS. For my riding style, my bike fits me perfectly. For someone else of my size, it would suck. Just my 2 cents.

 

[infin8ly]

I had this done a few years back at IMT on a new Klein. It takes a while to get the right stem, seat and post but I could tell a difference immediately after my first ride. No more pain in the knees, no more wondering if the seat was in the right spot. I would highly recommend this. If you get it done once and then you can carry it over to all of your bikes.

 

[TwistedCrank]

I second Zebdi's response

I considered a Wobble Naught fit. I asked a good friend of mine who's a 24 hour racer who had a Wobble Naught fit who recommended I NOT get it. This was based on the fact that 3 hard XC hours in the saddle caused no joint/back/hip/shoulder/knee/ankle/whereever pain whatsoever once I got a good fit.

I would say that if you can probably adjust your ride to avoid the joint pain yourself. When I talked to him the Wobble Naught guy acted like he was god's gift to bike fit and I basically told him to stick it.

If you're looking for a pretty good fit (one I've I used on 1 HT, 1FS and 1 SS) look at Ned Overend's book (I think it'a called "How to Mountain Bike Like a Champion" or something like that) - I used his guide to get a pretty good fit that I'm only modified by millimeters to get a fit that causes no pain.

 

[Earthpig]

did it on the road bike

I did break down and get a complete w-naught fit on my road bike a couple of years ago. I was having serious, lasting knee pain in my left leg after every ride. Turns out that my saddle was too high, too far back, and my cleats were positioned all wrong. One ride after the fit and *poof*, the knee pain vanished. I'd say that unless you're having some sort of knee/hip/leg/ankle/back/etc... pain that lasts long after a ride and is keeping you off the bike, you probably don't *need* a fit.

As for the guy doing the fits, Tom (I think that's his name) is an *interesting* fellow. I think he comes across like he talks down to everyone when it comes to things cycling-related (unless you're a pro), so don't take it personally.

 

[danK]

Obviously it's easy to bash someone hiding behind a keyboard; no one knows the true intent of a poster. That said....

Tom Coleman is considered rather eccentric by those who know him, by those who are cornered by him to talk about his product and by those who are caught in lengthy converstaions they wish they were never part of. His system has helped many riders but his ego is so big he won't accept the fact that it's been ineffective, if not detrimental, to many. I've spoken to at least 10 who have had Wobble Naught "installed" by Tom personally (he used to have others do it and would blame any negative results on his contract labor), and they said it was crap. This includes some racers whose names appear in the top 20 or national events. Racers who say he messed them up big time, and they went back to their self-adjustments with greater success.

I asked many of them why they used it. They said Tom just gloms on to them and they accept it to basically shut him up. A few recreational riders have complained of discomfort and pain AFTER Tom set them up in some "racer" position.

I asked a few of them if they are still using it even though they're on his collage of riders at George's or his Web site. Some said no. Some would no comment. But he does have a bunch of pros on their. I wonder how much of it is marketing and/or BS.

But sometimes it's not about getting rid of pain. His system is supposed to increase power and comfort. Many have said his system is good but they admitted not knowing a darn thing about bike setup. Those who have had years of experience setting their bikes up and then tried Wobble Naught for one reason or another said it made no difference in anything; this includes a SRM meter test, what I feel to be the most realistic and scientific in getting "results" for bike fit.

Take a look at his page: http://www.wobblenaught.com/testimonials.asp
I know for a fact many on his testimonial page do not use the product today. The testimonial from Chris Fox... why not give credit to the bowl of Wheaties he ate or the song he listened to instead of the almighty Wobble Naught. Marketing.... geez. And are we really going to trust what Shawn Grossman has to say? Heeeey, heeeey, heeeey.

Tom does talk down to many. I rarely go into George's but when I do he's workin' the phones and dealing his product. Good for him. I wonder why Cooley keeps him around. But I'd rather put my money into Brian Grieger's hands or go to someone trained in the CTS method (whom Tom says tried buying him out). I don't know if Tom has a science or anatomy background (Brian doesn't for what that's worth, but he has national race experience and that's gotta count for something, being around the best). Heck, I don't even know if Tom's ever raced a bike.

I was offered Wobble Naught for free years ago. I went through the initial process but never completed it. I have never recommended it and do my best to avoid the guy.

 

[Crash_Burn]

Great Thread!

I wanted to post on this one, but hesitated because I actually have sort of a "friendship" with Tom. I tend to be overly patient when it comes to listening to somebody who has something to say. Tom's got many - let just say - very strong opinions.

Let's turn this around and see if we can help Boise_peddler out.

If you want a Pro Fit - I second danK's suggestion of Brian's Pro Bike - what you can expect from Brian is honesty with experience, very refreshing.

If you want to try and fit on the cheap, this is my "in the ballpark fit".

Start with the Saddle - level it out, put it in the center of the saddle rails.

Next I adjust the saddle height - sit on the saddle with your right crank in the five o'clock position, adjust your saddle height so that with your leg extended you can just touch the pedal with your heal.

Next adjust your saddle fore/aft so that you knee is positioned over your pedal spindle when the crank arm is in the three o'clock position.

Next adjust your reach - you want a bend in your elbows - raise/lower/roll your bars to something that is comfortable for your back.

Last I heard World Cycle offers a one time purchase of stems. You buy one and trade out stems until you get the right size you need.

Ride On

 

[danK]

And whatever you do, adjustments/changes have to be made in small increments. I believe anything over 10mm of pure saddle height can lead to knee discomfort. I can only imagine trying to change height, fore/aft, and stem all at one time whether in big chunks or not.

FYI, Brian's # is 939-1705. You need to make an appointment, and it is a 25 minute drive out to his place. Well worth it.

 

[Boise_pedaler]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have actually done the "do it yourself" fitting as described above. The reason I am considering a complete fit is due to ongoing knee pain that developed while riding. I think it was mostly due to my cleat positioning. The problem began in October of last year and it still feels as if my knee won't make it through the season. I have a road bike that I put many miles on and may just opt to be fitted to it. My main concern with the complete fit is cost. Im not certain if I go in, will I be told my bike it the wrong size. Will I need to puchase a new $175 dollar crank?(internet price) New stem? There is simply no telling how much the total cost would be on top of the bike fit cost. But, if I dont go this route, does it mean not riding? I would pay almost anything to not have that happen. (even though I am "just a recreational rider")

As far as my comments about Tom. My intent for this thread was as mentioned above, not to simply bash him. However, the impression that guy left on me was HUGE! To be completely honest, that has resulted in my indecision to have the complete fit done. I wasn't sure if he was the only guy in town offering this service or not. Obviously this guy has a reputation. This has left me questioning George's bike shop as well. Why would they want a guy like that involved with their shop?

Anyway, thanks for the tip on Brian. I will give him a call and see what he can do for me.

Happy riding to all.

 

[danK]

I wouldn't question George's. They're just a highend "chain" shop that charges retail or retail-plus. Mike Cooley is smart; probably doesn't/can't fill the small space with inventory that Tom occupies. May as well stick the fat dude in the corner (used to be THERE when you walked in... how inconvenient) and collect some rent.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have actually done the "do it yourself" fitting as described above. The reason I am considering a complete fit is due to ongoing knee pain that developed while riding. I think it was mostly due to my cleat positioning. The problem began in October of last year and it still feels as if my knee won't make it through the season. I have a road bike that I put many miles on and may just opt to be fitted to it. My main concern with the complete fit is cost. Im not certain if I go in, will I be told my bike it the wrong size. Will I need to puchase a new $175 dollar crank?(internet price) New stem? There is simply no telling how much the total cost would be on top of the bike fit cost. But, if I dont go this route, does it mean not riding? I would pay almost anything to not have that happen. (even though I am "just a recreational rider")

As far as my comments about Tom. My intent for this thread was as mentioned above, not to simply bash him. However, the impression that guy left on me was HUGE! To be completely honest, that has resulted in my indecision to have the complete fit done. I wasn't sure if he was the only guy in town offering this service or not. Obviously this guy has a reputation. This has left me questioning George's bike shop as well. Why would they want a guy like that involved with their shop?

Anyway, thanks for the tip on Brian. I will give him a call and see what he can do for me.

Happy riding to all.

 

[bikerx40]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have actually done the "do it yourself" fitting as described above. The reason I am considering a complete fit is due to ongoing knee pain that developed while riding. I think it was mostly due to my cleat positioning. The problem began in October of last year and it still feels as if my knee won't make it through the season. I have a road bike that I put many miles on and may just opt to be fitted to it. My main concern with the complete fit is cost. Im not certain if I go in, will I be told my bike it the wrong size. Will I need to puchase a new $175 dollar crank?(internet price) New stem? There is simply no telling how much the total cost would be on top of the bike fit cost. But, if I dont go this route, does it mean not riding? I would pay almost anything to not have that happen. (even though I am "just a recreational rider")

As far as my comments about Tom. My intent for this thread was as mentioned above, not to simply bash him. However, the impression that guy left on me was HUGE! To be completely honest, that has resulted in my indecision to have the complete fit done. I wasn't sure if he was the only guy in town offering this service or not. Obviously this guy has a reputation. This has left me questioning George's bike shop as well. Why would they want a guy like that involved with their shop?

Anyway, thanks for the tip on Brian. I will give him a call and see what he can do for me.

Happy riding to all.

I've had surgery on both of my knees due to overuse injuries. I thought that I would have to retire from cycling at age 25, but luckily a friend told me to try out some Speedplay Frog pedals. I had always used Shimano and Time pedals, so I was a little reluctant but I felt that I would try anything to ride again.

Basically, the Speedplay pedals don't have any 'self-centering' feature to their float, which is perfect for people with bad knees. It turns out that the self-centering float was adding stress to my knees at some point during my pedal stroke. Now that I ride on the Speedplays, I can see my heel naturally move left and right (uninhibited) throughout the pedal stroke, which I never noticed before.

The initial feel of the Frog pedals is like your foot is rotating on an ice rink. It drove me nuts for the first week or so! However, the body must build stronger 'supporting' muscles in your calves or something because I don't have the sensation any longer.

One other great thing about these pedals is the fact that perfect cleat positioning is not as critical as Shimano, Speedplay, Eggbeaters, etc due to the fact that the pedal isn't trying to center your foot.

I'd give them a shot. It can't hurt! Good luck.

Oh, by the way. My friend went to Wobble Naught and has already purchased three frames, all of which he said didn't fit him properly. I think it might be a better idea for road bikes, but I'm not confident in the necessity for mountain.

 

[CBro]

And whatever you do, adjustments/changes have to be made in small increments. I believe anything over 10mm of pure saddle height can lead to knee discomfort. I can only imagine trying to change height, fore/aft, and stem all at one time whether in big chunks or not.

FYI, Brian's # is 939-1705. You need to make an appointment, and it is a 25 minute drive out to his place. Well worth it.

I talked to Brian about fit and wobblenaught several years ago. He didn't say anything bad about Wobblenaught, but that he could fit someone to their bike using his trained eye, hanging weights, etc, and claimed to be pretty darned good. I don't doubt it for a second.

 

[flipnidaho]

My $.02

When I started riding a lot about a million years ago (actually the mid-80's), I read up on bike fit (Lemond's book primarily) and used that as a baseline. I've also tried the Serotta Fit-Kit system but what I've come to find is that everyone has different physiological "quirks" as well as riding styles that they need to adjust for. For example, I'm bow-legged, duck footed, born without ACL's, damaged LCL's and MCL's as a result and have scoliosis. I used everything I read as a baseline and went from there and adjusted my fit on the bike in very tiny increments to get the position I have today. I did do the Wobblenaught fit but it didn't fit my physiology (what works for 99% of the riders out there that are "normal" does not necessarily work on this flip, if y'all know what I mean). I went back to my old tried and true settings...
As an extra note on the Wobblenaught fit I got. It was free and I did try it but it never felt comfortable for me and my riding style. When people asked me for feedback, I gave it to them. Tom heard about my feedback and got pissed and actually confronted me... I told him that the answer IS what it IS... I also think that it maybe a good baseline for folks just like the Lemond's book was for me... but do NOT consider it as the end-all to bike fit... Continue tweaking...

 

[danK]

When I started riding a lot about a million years ago (actually the mid-80's), I read up on bike fit (Lemond's book primarily) and used that as a baseline. I've also tried the Serotta Fit-Kit system but what I've come to find is that everyone has different physiological "quirks" as well as riding styles that they need to adjust for. For example, I'm bow-legged, duck footed, born without ACL's, damaged LCL's and MCL's as a result and have scoliosis. I used everything I read as a baseline and went from there and adjusted my fit on the bike in very tiny increments to get the position I have today. I did do the Wobblenaught fit but it didn't fit my physiology (what works for 99% of the riders out there that are "normal" does not necessarily work on this flip, if y'all know what I mean). I went back to my old tried and true settings...
As an extra note on the Wobblenaught fit I got. It was free and I did try it but it never felt comfortable for me and my riding style. When people asked me for feedback, I gave it to them. Tom heard about my feedback and got pissed and actually confronted me... I told him that the answer IS what it IS... I also think that it maybe a good baseline for folks just like the Lemond's book was for me... but do NOT consider it as the end-all to bike fit... Continue tweaking...

Getting pissed is easier than listening to constructive criticism.

 

[jcgould]

Substance over accusation

You have made a list of accusations but there is no support for your comments. Tom's personality is nothing more than that .. his personality. Start with the assumption that the wobblenaught fit is based on sound science; if you don't agree with this comment please provide information as to why. Tom can easily provide you if the data used to produce the equations used to determine the 'fit."
1. Provide the names of the ten people that have been fit and said it's crap. More importantly can they quantify why the "fit" was crap? It is easy for mediocre athletes to blame their equipment for their shortcomings.
2. Please provide data to support the claim that the "fit" messed them up big time.
3. Please provide data to support your accusation that Tom blamed any party that provided Tom with "contract labor" and provide the negative results.
4. Give me the name of any successful racer that got fit because they couldn't say NO (you've got to be kidding me -- are you in third grade).
5. IF you have questions as to whether a racer posted on the website or on Tom's bulletin board is still using the fit, ask.
6. As for testimonials, see comment 5 above.
7. Nice rip at Shawn Grossman .. you're a class act.
8. I fail to see how whether a person races is dispositive on the success of a fit system. Do you really think that every invention must come from one at the front of the industry? Could a lab geek design a running shoe used by the top runners or should running shoe design be limited to world class runners?

My point is that criticisms of the wobblenaught fit, as you present them, lack any substance. I have yet to hear why the science used is inappropriate. I was fit a few years ago. My riding has improved. When I was fit I was a sport rider. Within two years I won the wild rockies series as an expert. Last year I won two races as a pro. I am currently ranked 10 nationally as an expert.

I have no problem with people that don't want to be fit or don't think the fit is 'right' for them. If you choose to discredit someone at least support your accusations. It is very easy to bash something 'new'. Historically people have been killed for proposing new theories and ideas .. they are easy targets. I try to remain open to comments and I have yet to hear anyone substantiate why the wobblenaught fit is faulty.

 

[danK]

Wow, your very first post on mtbr and you go straight to this thread. Hmmm. Wonder if the WobbleNaught sponsored rider was asked or told to do so by The Village Idiot? As for your list of "prove its" (aside from #7 because that guy is totally whacked) do you think anyone is going to waste their time debating an old thread for a newbie mole?

"Yeah, that was me. Go ahead. Burn my bridge in the sponsorship world."

I have yet to find proof Santa Claus isn't real and doesn't climb down my chimney, but I know he's not and doesn't. But I'm sure I can find an elf who will back up the claims.

You have made a list of accusations but there is no support for your comments. Tom's personality is nothing more than that .. his personality. Start with the assumption that the wobblenaught fit is based on sound science; if you don't agree with this comment please provide information as to why. Tom can easily provide you if the data used to produce the equations used to determine the 'fit."
1. Provide the names of the ten people that have been fit and said it's crap. More importantly can they quantify why the "fit" was crap? It is easy for mediocre athletes to blame their equipment for their shortcomings.
2. Please provide data to support the claim that the "fit" messed them up big time.
3. Please provide data to support your accusation that Tom blamed any party that provided Tom with "contract labor" and provide the negative results.
4. Give me the name of any successful racer that got fit because they couldn't say NO (you've got to be kidding me -- are you in third grade).
5. IF you have questions as to whether a racer posted on the website or on Tom's bulletin board is still using the fit, ask.
6. As for testimonials, see comment 5 above.
7. Nice rip at Shawn Grossman .. you're a class act.
8. I fail to see how whether a person races is dispositive on the success of a fit system. Do you really think that every invention must come from one at the front of the industry? Could a lab geek design a running shoe used by the top runners or should running shoe design be limited to world class runners?

My point is that criticisms of the wobblenaught fit, as you present them, lack any substance. I have yet to hear why the science used is inappropriate. I was fit a few years ago. My riding has improved. When I was fit I was a sport rider. Within two years I won the wild rockies series as an expert. Last year I won two races as a pro. I am currently ranked 10 nationally as an expert.

I have no problem with people that don't want to be fit or don't think the fit is 'right' for them. If you choose to discredit someone at least support your accusations. It is very easy to bash something 'new'. Historically people have been killed for proposing new theories and ideas .. they are easy targets. I try to remain open to comments and I have yet to hear anyone substantiate why the wobblenaught fit is faulty.

 

[zebdi]

Why don't you provide all of these answers as to why wobblenaught is sooo good. Go ahead, let us here it. Waste your time researching it. Let it fall on deaf ears. Congratulations on all your accomplishments. We are all very impressed that wobblenaught brought you these victories. You must be very proud. We bow down.

If you have a fit problem, get it fixed. If you don't, just ride. Bicycle fit is not rocket science.

You have made a list of accusations but there is no support for your comments. Tom's personality is nothing more than that .. his personality. Start with the assumption that the wobblenaught fit is based on sound science; if you don't agree with this comment please provide information as to why. Tom can easily provide you if the data used to produce the equations used to determine the 'fit."
1. Provide the names of the ten people that have been fit and said it's crap. More importantly can they quantify why the "fit" was crap? It is easy for mediocre athletes to blame their equipment for their shortcomings.
2. Please provide data to support the claim that the "fit" messed them up big time.
3. Please provide data to support your accusation that Tom blamed any party that provided Tom with "contract labor" and provide the negative results.
4. Give me the name of any successful racer that got fit because they couldn't say NO (you've got to be kidding me -- are you in third grade).
5. IF you have questions as to whether a racer posted on the website or on Tom's bulletin board is still using the fit, ask.
6. As for testimonials, see comment 5 above.
7. Nice rip at Shawn Grossman .. you're a class act.
8. I fail to see how whether a person races is dispositive on the success of a fit system. Do you really think that every invention must come from one at the front of the industry? Could a lab geek design a running shoe used by the top runners or should running shoe design be limited to world class runners?

My point is that criticisms of the wobblenaught fit, as you present them, lack any substance. I have yet to hear why the science used is inappropriate. I was fit a few years ago. My riding has improved. When I was fit I was a sport rider. Within two years I won the wild rockies series as an expert. Last year I won two races as a pro. I am currently ranked 10 nationally as an expert.

I have no problem with people that don't want to be fit or don't think the fit is 'right' for them. If you choose to discredit someone at least support your accusations. It is very easy to bash something 'new'. Historically people have been killed for proposing new theories and ideas .. they are easy targets. I try to remain open to comments and I have yet to hear anyone substantiate why the wobblenaught fit is faulty.

 

[jcgould]

Why get fit?

The Wobblenaught fit places the rider in a position to maximize muscle and movement efficiency. While a bicycle fit is not rocket science, a Wobblenaught fit will put you in a position that, barring personal limitations such as limberness, pre-existing conditions or (back or joint problems), allows for the most efficient effort. As for my accomplishments, I included thiose because earlier posts questioned results of a wobblenaught fit. I appreciate your acknowledgement.

Why don't you provide all of these answers as to why wobblenaught is sooo good. Go ahead, let us here it. Waste your time researching it. Let it fall on deaf ears. Congratulations on all your accomplishments. We are all very impressed that wobblenaught brought you these victories. You must be very proud. We bow down.

If you have a fit problem, get it fixed. If you don't, just ride. Bicycle fit is not rocket science.

 

[zebdi]

As for my accomplishments, I included thiose because earlier posts questioned results of a wobblenaught fit.

There's one testimonial down and only 9 more to go to fill your quota. I guess we'll also need to see some supporting data as you mentioned earlier. Graphs would be nice.

 

[bikerx40]

It's unfortunate that the Wobblenaught's position of 'maximum muscle and movement efficiency' places the rider in a position that is completely impractical and unsafe for anything other than road racing and XC racing.

He's fit two of my riding buddies in this extreme XC race-like positioning with 15-20 degree negative-rise stems and very stretched out reaches, both of which completely killed their downhill abilities on anything other than paved surfaces. You should have seen the precarious position that they were in when braking downhill. Between the fork dive and the near drop-bar type positioning it was a collarbone crunching crash waiting to happen. And no, their terrible downhill positioning had nothing to do with their amount of limberness or lack of ability.

Needless to say, they are both back to their regular handlebar and stem positions. The only thing that they have kept is the cleat and seat positioning.

Sure it may be efficient while climbing or on the flats (like most World Cup XC and Short Track XC today), but it was completely worthless when it came to 'real' mountain bike riding.

The Wobblenaught fit places the rider in a position to maximize muscle and movement efficiency. While a bicycle fit is not rocket science, a Wobblenaught fit will put you in a position that, barring personal limitations such as limberness, pre-existing conditions or (back or joint problems), allows for the most efficient effort. As for my accomplishments, I included thiose because earlier posts questioned results of a wobblenaught fit. I appreciate your acknowledgement.