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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In Sedona we have many trails that can be used to make numerous fun loops, but most of those trails aren't signed.

I did a ride yesterday with a touron from PA. He wanted to ride Highline, so I asked him how log a ride he wanted to do, two hours, three hours, four hours or five hours (that's my limit). He looked at me kind of funny, so I explained there are about ten ways to do a ride that includes Highline.

When he decided on a three hour ride, I visualized 4 to 5 loops that could meet his request. The problem is very few riders could find those loops if I were to give them the names of all the trails to do those loops, because there are LITTLE or NO signs to refer to.

The point of the thread is to come up with some good ideas on how to effectively mark all those trails so riders and hikers could figure out where they were going.

My best idea for a sign is using a unpainted 12" piece of 1 X 4 and two 1 1/2" wood screws for attachment to a tree more than 4" in diameter. The trail name would be written with a felt tip pen. If anyone has ridden the Sedona Lemonade Bypass you have noticed a similar sign that has been in place for more than four years.

The problem with this method is that, one it isn't FS approved, two the sign usually couldn't be placed at the actual trail intersection since there maybe no usable trees for 100 feet or so, and three the sign could easily be distroyed by the eco nutsie crowd (who wants to do some work and have it be distroyed).

Does anyone have a different signage suggestion that might be cheap and more effective?

TD
 

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I could see nailing signs to a tree would upset some people.
If you are wanting to go that route, it could be just as easy to designate its own stand.


Convincing the FS to do this would be along the same lines as any trail head signs would be necessary. Especially in Arizona. How many people have you heard getting lost on trails in the AZ sun
 

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I do not like signs on the trails... I say keep the trails unmarked, might make for less users. Might be an especially good idea in Sedona, those trails are already almost unusable due to the number of hikers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
kubo said:
I could see nailing signs to a tree would upset some people.
If you are wanting to go that route, it could be just as easy to designate its own stand.


Convincing the FS to do this would be along the same lines as any trail head signs would be necessary. Especially in Arizona. How many people have you heard getting lost on trails in the AZ sun
kubo:

How much would you charge me to put in a sign like that on the Turon/Lost Watch intersection? I figure my signage idea would cost around $5.00 in materials and labor since I would install it during a normal ride. Also what is the damage done by two screws into a 4" diameter tree?

I have heard of several people getting lost on Sedona trails, but they didn't end up dying. I think it is a good experiene myself for stupid people.
 

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You may already know this...

Paul Hart with the forest service is trying to find people to help improve the signage on the system trails in Sedona.
They have all the materials and funds to do so, they just need volunteers or people to help do it.
And obviously they can not put a sign up on a trail that is not marked as part of their system.
I have an email from Jennifer Burns at the Forest Service that lists the trails that were requested by the Department of Agriculture along with the letter that was sent on May 12, 2010. It also explains why these connections make logical sence to be added to the system.
I can send you the email, I would copy and paste but its in a .pdf format. With you being an avid trail doctor, I bet they would love to work with you on the trails.
Comments are encouaged.
 

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I would much favor a local providing directions via ride with me, just as you do. Its better for the local economy that way.
So often, many trail enthusists attempts to sign their favorite trails ends in those signs being removed, shot, defaced, or run over from other folks who disfavor said trail signs. However it is, Sedona has plenty of people who love to make cairns, which must remind them that they are not lost, but rather should step away more often from the comforts of home, spas, shopping, and cars. I too will gladly kick a cairn or two. Sedona has too many signs along the roads, too many views, too many confused touron's trying to navigate traffic circles. And these are the bike riders! Its just nice to leave that behind.
Anyway, the longest lived type of sign is one that looks like an official USFS sign. The Westerners seem to like to build a wire and stone cairn, with a sign.
 

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kubo said:
You may already know this...


They have all the materials and funds to do so, they just need volunteers or people to help do it.
.
If they have the material and funds to do it why are they looking for volunteers?

Remember with volunteers, you get what you pay for.

If you want it done properly, pay someone and get it done.

That's been my experience working with advocacy on the North Shore ( BC).

Doc - Find out what kind of sign and how much work it takes to put them up. Then write them a proposal.

When I was with the NSMBA we had trail head signs installed. We paid someone $15.00 to install the post. They were 4X4's 8ft long, they had to be dug 3ft in the ground. This might be more difficult in your terrain... Then I went around and screwed the signs in.
 

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quoted by pwrtrainer
....not to mention the fact that horse people would feel obliged to bring their biological rototillers onto the trail and ruin it for everyone.


thanks to horses & cowboys from yrs ago we have many of trails we continue to use today. imo, if you don't like horses, stay off of trails accessable by them. also, most public trails come in the form of MULTIUSE. sorry, i love my horses as well.
j
 

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pwrtrainer said:
The minute you have signs for all the trails someone will go and make a giant map with all those trails on them, then everyone will come from all over to ride these trails after a brief search online for directions. I would love for the trails to be accessible for all, but too much access leads to overuse. With signs it is only a matter of time before someone meanders onto a trail with a cool name and ends up getting hurt and needs to be rescued. There is a reason I don't bring some of my friends on hangover or highline, they will die. not to mention the fact that horse people would feel obliged to bring their biological rototillers onto the trail and ruin it for everyone.

If someone desperately wants to ride these trails, just ask a local you meet riding near them. That's how I found Highline. I just think signs dumb it down too much and are an unnecessary solution to a necessary problem.
The maps already made.

You're trails could accommodate quite a bit of traffic. They are also self regulating. Also the fact that you have to climb technical trails to get to the goods will limit traffic.

With the proper education people should know what trails they are able to ride. Something like the practice Loop in Moab to weed out the ones who shouldn't be there.

Signage is part of education, user experience and something that will, yes, make more people ride your trails and help you advocate to protect your trails and help facilitate creating more and enhance existing trails.

It will help spread people out and give them the knowledge to make informed decisions.

As for horses. Isn't the reason its called 'slickrock' because when the early settlers brought their horses the rock was too slick for them to walk on? I don't think you'll see a lot of horses on the damifino/hangover saddle...
 

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foamfreak said:
quoted by pwrtrainer
....not to mention the fact that horse people would feel obliged to bring their biological rototillers onto the trail and ruin it for everyone.


thanks to horses & cowboys from yrs ago we have many of trails we continue to use today. imo, if you don't like horses, stay off of trails accessable by them. also, most public trails come in the form of MULTIUSE. sorry, i love my horses as well.
j
Truth in that. Even up here in BC. Horses have made a lot of trails.
 

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traildoc said:
Does anyone have a different signage suggestion that might be cheap and more effective?

TD
Coroplast. ( the stuff W/B uses on their trails in the Bike Park)

You can get different colours. Cut to size you want, 5"X4" would be a nice size.

Write with black felt.

Two holes in each top corner, tie around a tree with wire, string or rope.

Assume they'll be removed, but at least it won't hurt the tree.

You could create signs on your computer, two signs per 8.5X11, cut in half and laminate.

Down there you could even use heavier paper, or photo paper. We have lots of rain so this is what we do for race signage.

Again tie, or staple into a tree. If someone is going to take them this is easy.


They will probably fade over time, but that just means you have to ride more!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
kubo said:
You may already know this...

Paul Hart with the forest service is trying to find people to help improve the signage on the system trails in Sedona.
They have all the materials and funds to do so, they just need volunteers or people to help do it.
And obviously they can not put a sign up on a trail that is not marked as part of their system.
I have an email from Jennifer Burns at the Forest Service that lists the trails that were requested by the Department of Agriculture along with the letter that was sent on May 12, 2010. It also explains why these connections make logical sence to be added to the system.
I can send you the email, I would copy and paste but its in a .pdf format. With you being an avid trail doctor, I bet they would love to work with you on the trails.
Comments are encouaged.
kubo:

Please take a picture of the letters and post them as jpegs for us all to read OR attach the pdf file to your response for us to open and read.

When you say they have the funds and materials to do the signage are you saying they have the metal posts, the metal plates, the rock drills, the welder, the cutting torch, the cement but they have no one who knows how to weld, how to use a cutting torch and how to use a rock drill so they need volunteers to do that process? I am as usual totally confused. THX

TD
 

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traildoc said:
Does anyone have a different signage suggestion that might be cheap and more effective?

TD
I went to Los Burros near McNary a couple weeks ago for the first time (hi, I'm new). The trails there were marked with little blue diamond-shaped signs attached to the trees. Some of them had some writing on them, indicating who had placed them. Seemed a bit organized, perhaps if someone knows the organization, you could consult them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
WaylonMcFlailin said:
I went to Los Burros near McNary a couple weeks ago for the first time (hi, I'm new). The trails there were marked with little blue diamond-shaped signs attached to the trees. Some of them had some writing on them, indicating who had placed them. Seemed a bit organized, perhaps if someone knows the organization, you could consult them.
WMF:

That is a GREAT IDEA, I fully agree. I works great, it's cheap, BUT do you think the FS would OK it? It has been done somewhere else and it's working, the Sedona non-system sucks.

TD
 

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Does anyone have a different signage suggestion that might be cheap and more effective?
Check out the WMTS signs. Simple, effective, not tooooooo obvious but for those looking to find their way, and not get lost they work. I think someone mentioned it above.

MIght be more of chore in Sedona. Seems to be a ton of overlapping trails.

From their site:

TRAIL MARKERS
Trails are marked with blue diamonds. Yellow dots indicate a short route back to the trailhead. Green dots indicate a connector trail to another WMTS loop. Red dots indicate a vista trail.


The trail #'s are on the little signs, not proper 'names'.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
eatdrinkride said:
Check out the WMTS signs. Simple, effective, not tooooooo obvious but for those looking to find their way, and not get lost they work. I think someone mentioned it above.

MIght be more of chore in Sedona. Seems to be a ton of overlapping trails.

From their site:

TRAIL MARKERS
Trails are marked with blue diamonds. Yellow dots indicate a short route back to the trailhead. Green dots indicate a connector trail to another WMTS loop. Red dots indicate a vista trail.


The trail #'s are on the little signs, not proper 'names'.
WMTS????????????????

TD
 
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