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sharing the love
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My favorite trail in Boise is Table Rock. Not the whole trail; just the rim portion at the top because it is one of the only technical trails in this area. My favorite section was after the rock stair case. There was a tight slot that was very tricky to get through without catching a pedal then it went down through an awesome rock garden with wheel swallowing holes in it. Last week I rode that trail and to my disgust, the rock garden was removed and replaced with something much easier. I have to admit that it is fine trail building but it shouldn't have been touched. It was fine the way it was. I don't care if most people consider it to be a hike-a-bike. It's something to work towards for them. Why can't Boise just leave the technical things alone and work on the boring trails? That time could have been spent building a nice rock garden in an otherwise boring section of the trail. Even the tight slot was "fixed" to be more ridable. When are so-called "mountain" bikers around here going to toughen up and learn to ride? Go back to your road bikes if you want something easy. The most challenge you can hope for in this place is a rutted out section of downhill. Even the rock garden on Bob's trail has been by-passed on numerous occasions. Twice I have placed rocks in the way of the alternate route to stop people from eroding the hillside by riding around the rocks and both times, they have been removed. Come on Boise! If you can't ride it, ride somewhere else! Stick to Crestline!
 

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Politically Incorrect
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Nice first post. Great way to introduce yourself to the board. :rolleyes:
 

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Wandervans
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Keep it single, walk it if you can't ride it

This winter we had an incident where someone removed rocks on hulls gulch and I have definatly noticed people going around some of the tougher sections on bobs trail. Both of these events are very sad indeed, if you can't ride it then get off and walk it.

I don't think Boise is alone in riders that go around obstacles thought. I guess the best way to address this issue is throught education. Since trying to block off side routes means someone can usually just move the debris off of the trail. You should get involved if this issue is important to you.

As far as the work on table rock goes you should talk to David Gordon at Ridge to Rivers about this issue. Call him up at (208) 384-4060 ext. 341 or [email protected]

I will also bring this issue up with him next time I talk to him, but it would be better if you talked to him about the issue.

Finally if you want more easy trails then get involved or if you want more difficult trails then get involved also, since the best way to yeild result is to become involved.

Chris
 

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Barneys Unite!
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Perspective! Perspective!

And I spend most of my time *****ing about not having enough easy trails. Jeesh!
 

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King of the Barneys
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zebdi said:
My favorite trail in Boise is Table Rock. Not the whole trail; just the rim portion at the top because it is one of the only technical trails in this area. My favorite section was after the rock stair case. There was a tight slot that was very tricky to get through without catching a pedal then it went down through an awesome rock garden with wheel swallowing holes in it. Last week I rode that trail and to my disgust, the rock garden was removed and replaced with something much easier. I have to admit that it is fine trail building but it shouldn't have been touched. It was fine the way it was. I don't care if most people consider it to be a hike-a-bike. It's something to work towards for them. Why can't Boise just leave the technical things alone and work on the boring trails? That time could have been spent building a nice rock garden in an otherwise boring section of the trail. Even the tight slot was "fixed" to be more ridable. When are so-called "mountain" bikers around here going to toughen up and learn to ride? Go back to your road bikes if you want something easy. The most challenge you can hope for in this place is a rutted out section of downhill. Even the rock garden on Bob's trail has been by-passed on numerous occasions. Twice I have placed rocks in the way of the alternate route to stop people from eroding the hillside by riding around the rocks and both times, they have been removed. Come on Boise! If you can't ride it, ride somewhere else! Stick to Crestline!
Have you thought of moving to Whistler? Vancouver? Moab? They tend to be a tad more difficult than our foothills trails.

Chris Brown
 

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sharing the love
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm not trying to piss anyone off with this thread; just trying to get some discussion. Yes, I have thought about moving to places like Vancouver, BC because one road trip there and I didn't want to come back to these nearly handicap accessible trails. Moab doesn't thrill me because of all the jeeps, 12' wide trails, and the heat. Speaking of 12' wide trails, I rode Crestline the other day and you can pretty much drive a car up there. Has any thought been given to educating trail users with simple little signs that not only tell them not to do something but give them a reason. A sign here and there with simple statements about keeping the single track single or yielding to uphill riders or riding in control. Back to my point. I have expressed my opinions about local trails to more than a couple people who can do something about it and I get the same reply each time. "We have to be concerned about liablity and sustainaility on public trails." The rest of the country has much more difficult/technical trails than here and I don't see them closing them or making them "greenbelt-ish" to minimize liability. And sustainability? These people obviously haven't looked at trail building techniques because that is the whole point of them. I haven't seen too many rock gardens getting washed away but I have seen a butt-load of smooth, silty trails getting eroded away. Rolling grade dips can be made into jumps if done correctly. Bermed corners have their place. Rock drops don't wash away either. I'm just confused as to why Boise is so reluctant. I'm hoping some of these new trails in the works will offer a bit of fun-factor but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe I'll buy a road bike. Hell, I could ride most of these trails on that.
 

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Barneys Unite!
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Don't you think that, since these are public trails,

there has to be an element of accomodating the biggest number of users, i.e., average riders? Or even beginners? And hikers? I'm just not sure that what you are asking is realistic, given the politics of land use.

I can't ride a trail like Bob's Trail (trail, what trail?) without walking most of it, yet you seem to think it's pretty pud. I'm guessing that puts you in the minority. While I certainly admire your skill and wish that I had it, I'm not sure that it's realistic for the trails around here to be challenging for someone of your skill level. That would tend to limit useage to only very experienced and skilled riders, and might drive off newer riders. (And we need newer riders to continue the sport).

Most folks I talk to can find a trail or two around here that challenges them. As far as I have seen, you're the only person that thinks they all suck. For someone like me (and probably a lot of others who like to ride) there are challenges galore.
 

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sharing the love
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just more variety...

I am certainly not the only one that rides like I do. I know several people who like the technical challenges and can clean every trail in Boise. I'm not saying that all the trails in Boise should be built to the standards of North Shore trails or anything. I just think there should be some opportunity for progression. If you want smooth, wide trails, you've got many miles to choose from here. If you want something a bit more interesting, you've got only a couple choices for trails (which are probably less than 10 miles total). There should be a wide variety to meet all (or most) riders' needs. The only reason why most people here find technical riding to be too much is because they aren't exposed to it. Sure, Boise riders can climb 3000' without a problem, but then you are home in 15 minutes because you can ride 35 mph back down the trail. In other places around the country/world 10 year olds are out there trying things that make Bob's trail look like the Greenbelt.
 

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My honest response to you

zebdi said:
My favorite trail in Boise is Table Rock. Not the whole trail; just the rim portion at the top because it is one of the only technical trails in this area. My favorite section was after the rock stair case. There was a tight slot that was very tricky to get through without catching a pedal then it went down through an awesome rock garden with wheel swallowing holes in it. Last week I rode that trail and to my disgust, the rock garden was removed and replaced with something much easier. I have to admit that it is fine trail building but it shouldn't have been touched. It was fine the way it was. I don't care if most people consider it to be a hike-a-bike. It's something to work towards for them. Why can't Boise just leave the technical things alone and work on the boring trails? That time could have been spent building a nice rock garden in an otherwise boring section of the trail. Even the tight slot was "fixed" to be more ridable. When are so-called "mountain" bikers around here going to toughen up and learn to ride? Go back to your road bikes if you want something easy. The most challenge you can hope for in this place is a rutted out section of downhill. Even the rock garden on Bob's trail has been by-passed on numerous occasions. Twice I have placed rocks in the way of the alternate route to stop people from eroding the hillside by riding around the rocks and both times, they have been removed. Come on Boise! If you can't ride it, ride somewhere else! Stick to Crestline!
I'm with you. As far as existing trails go in the foothills, there is plenty for beginning riders, and those need to be properly maintained, etc. As far as the "work" done on tablerock, I haven't seen it yet, I've been riding up on the mountain the last few months, but I'll see it on Sat and probably will not like what I see. I'm not exactly sure the section you're referring to, but I think you're talking about castle rock, before climbing up to table rock? There is one nice fun tight technical section up on table rock, but it's not in the flow of any trail, it's just a tight rock drop in that's fun to do once you're up there. Come out and ride on Sat morning from Julia Davis park around 8:30 and we'll check it out.

Go to the meeting tonight if you can, give input.
I am by no means even close to the top riders here, you've got guys like Phil Vega and
Carl Marcum that are almost pro level DH riders. Both do ride XC, and Phil rides more.
Just enjoy what you can, and use Willow Lane and other areas if you want to dirt jump and stuff

I'm definitly going to (tactfully) state my opinon tonight. Any new trails I ideally would like to see big berms and banked turns in the flow of trails where speed is up, see if we can route these trails down some natural steep areas and rock outcroppings, and build sustainable drop offs that won't erode. Maybe even dig out some straight on drop offs say between 2,3, and 4 feet. Build some table jumps and step downs, maybe even some wooden stuff on the actual trails themselves.

I'm busy like everyone else, but I would be willing to put in a ridiculous amount of time building the right stuff. However, if it's something that is just the same ol same ol, and a compromise, then I'm simply not as motivated to go to work on it.

Where do you come from anyway?

I come from SoCal and that shouldn't elicit ANY xenophobia or attitude on this board.
My favorite trails there ranged from mildly to extremely technical (scary) butt way on the rear wheel multiple rock drop in type stuff (Laguna)
 

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sharing the love
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm not alone...

Actually, the portion of table rock that I am referring to is at the top. The trail starts near where the paved road reaches the top and there is a small parking area. There are some large rocks in front of where the cars park (mostly rock climbers, I think) and the trails starts there, wraps around the east side and then out to the front where the main trail is. There is a fork in the trail as you come around the front. The trail that goes up is where you want to go. It goes around some very large boulders, then up a very steep hill (tough but do-able), then makes a hairpin turn and down a rock staircase, then past a couple more large boulders, through a slot in the rocks, and down what used to be a rock garden. It's all in the area of what they call the Tram line or something.

By the way, Phil Vega is a pro dh racer.

I can't attend the meeting tonight because I am heading out of town for work tonight. I have emailed Dave Gordon and Paul Woods but I get the same reply out of them each time; liability, sustainability, and other users (hikers, horses). I'm pretty sure hikers can go about anywhere a bike can and horses have plenty of smooth trails here. Hikers also have their own trails that don't allow bikes.

I'm from the midwest but I unfortunately didn't get into mountain biking until I got here. The trails there are sweet (rocky, rooty, muddy, short ups and downs, and now "north shore" stunts). They could be here too, but those in charge won't listen. I have nothing against California except the speed limits on trails and the fact that you can't take dogs on many trails.

Thanks for backing me up on this one. I was starting to think I was alone.
 

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King of the Barneys
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What I did about 5 yrs ago out of boredom with our local trails was convert most of my riding to a fully rigid singlespeed. All of a sudden these trails were interesting and challenging again. Night riding had the similar affect, but I never bought into $400 for a good light rig.

I'm gonna build some ramps and teeter totters, and other obstacles in my back yard (yeah, its a sw boise typical big back yard, because I do find myself at a handicap when I travel up north or out of state (ie, N ID, MT, WA, Moab, NV, AZ, et al) and don't have the technical riding experience that most of these other trails demand.

How many times can you ride up and down Bob's, for the love of Pete? Besides, I have a stack of old lumber rotting in the back yard and I think it'll be fun.

Also, I plan to make the meeting tonight.

Re that section of Tablerock, if it's right up by the top of the lip east of the cross, I tried it once and almost killed myself. Would try it again with a spotter. So ride on...

Chris Brown
 

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TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
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The quality of the foothils trails is...

... constrained by its environment and the geography. For the entire foothils probably 98 percent of the terrain is wide-open desert grassland - this makes for wide-open riding that's gut-busting climbs, screaming downhills, slope-hugging single track, and proximity to a moderate-sized city. The other 2 percent (if that) of the geography allows for tight gulch-bottom single track and exposed rock gardens.

As a result the majority of foothills rides are wide open climbs and screaming descents. There's a little technical stuff in there too - like Bob's and Table Rock and a few other defining 20 foot sections of trail. The foothills simply does not support a huge amount of technical riding - it's there but not in vast amounts. What technical trails there are suffer from erosion, wildlife habitat issues and overuse (Bobs, Hulls, Dry Creek), liability issues (Table Rock maybe?), and competing multiple use issues ( Devil's Slide).

I cut my eye teeth on technical trails in upstate New York, where 90 percent of the time was spent bouncing over wheel-swallowing roots and flying around blind corners through dark forests. As a result, I jonesed for the highly technical stuff. After getting back on my bike when I moved to Boise, I thought the local rock gardens and technical sections were kind of fun but they did not create a rewarding mountain bike experience for me. What the foothills offers to me are the long-haul gut-busting climbs on decomposed granite. So the bottom line for me is that I'm a much better cross country rider now and technical riding is something I get to do every now and then. There's certainly not enough there to define my Boise mountain biking experience.

Foothills riding is what it is and having more or enhanced technical trails isn't going to make it any better or any worse. It will just evolve the character of what's available.

Riding on slickrock defines the character of Moab riding, whatever it is that turns you on about Vancouver defines the character of Vancouver riding, bouncy roots and tight turns defines the character of upstate New York riding.

My advise to you (or anybody else for that matter) is to enjoy foothills riding for what it is and don't whine about it for what it isn't.
 

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sharing the love
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I realize that Boise is limited by it's terrain, etc., but things can be done to add some fun to the trails (jumps, dip, berms, etc.). You say Moab is defined by slickrock, but they have a lot more than trails on slickrock. (Personally I didn't think Slickrock trail itself was that great - no need to do more than once in your life.) I have seen many sections of trail in the foothills that go around a rock section instead of through it. The trails just follow the contours to find the easy way up and down. Boise could offer much more but people just aren't willing to embrace it. One of my main concerns is that with all these new trails being proposed by Ridges to Rivers, we are just going to get more of the same easy trails. I really hope this meeting tonight accomplishes something.
 

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TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
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Me too

I too would like to see some more sustained technical single track but I'm not going to hold my breath. I've seen an awful lot of hardcore areas softened by the competing interests of multiple use and to some extent that's happening here.

The flip side of that statement is that I've seen some prettry incredible community MTB synergy grow out of making mountain biking accessible to more people. That too is happening here.

Whatever it is it's all good.
 

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Boise Trails...

Well, I see your point regarding more downhill stuff, drops etc. Why don't you try trail 4? There are a number different skill aspects you can work on with that trail. Work on speed in the loose if nothing else. It's one of my favorites. What about some of the trails on the back side of the ridge? They are frequented by Motorcyclists (fast ones), but the level of difficulty gets right up there, like Daggett Creek, lots of rock obstacles. If you think Boise trails suck, try riding in Denver. Just getting there would eat up all of my time... :cool:
 

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Wandervans
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here is an idea for some more technical trails

Zebhi and others, I can't promise any immediate results on the Boise Front even though I have been pushing for the past couple of years, and have not gotten any traction either on a skills park at military reserve.

One option is to come up and help build trails up at stack rock. I have been trying to make some technical offshoots and jumps on eastside trail, but could use some help. We have a number of logs to make log rides and rocks to work with so if you are intrested in helping out you could start by addding technical offshoots off of eastside or some other trails up at stack. We can not build wooden stunts but can certainly get creative with rocks, dirt and log to keep the natural feel. Let me know if you are interested and then we can go up as a group and then I can show you some of my thoughs and then you guys can go at it.

Chris
 

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Barneys Unite!
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Not trying to start a war or anything (seriously), but . . .

who decides whether or not it is OK to do what you're suggesting? Several of the posts above seem to condemn making trails easier. Is it any more acceptable to make trails more technically difficult or build "side" trails? I though there were ownership issues with Stack Rock.

I am admittedly new to this, and I am not sure how this works.

TF
 

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Wandervans
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trails up at stack, the trail worker decides

Terry, Yes there is private property issues up at Stack Rock, but there is also a signed MOU between the FS and SWIMBA to build and maintain trails on FS land up there. Which is how we built 4.2 miles of new singletrack up there last year and maybe by fall we will add an extra 2 more miles.

Up there I try to keep the really hard stuff as options off on the side so that way friends of different abilities can ride together.

On the issue of who decides how hard the trail will be, that is pretty much up to who ever builds the trail up there and takes care of it. There is a couple dedicated guys who build and maintain and know what is allowed and where fs land is located up there and they really define how the trail flows. We do have a good variety up there right now. You should also be a swimba member to do trail work up there too so you are covered under the MOU. Plus we have insurance for swimba members incase you get hurt or some other issue arrises. And we do like work to be done with a crew leader also to make sure it is correct and fits in with the mou.
 

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Barneys Unite!
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Thanks.

Very helpful info. If you post the next time there is going to be trail work (anywhere, not just there), I would be very glad to lend a hand - or shovel, as the case may be.

TF
 
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