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Seems to me that a tube weighs about 120g, so a tubeless tire should weigh less than 120g more than a standard tire. Even the tubeless light tires weigh at least 150g more than the regular version. Is there more to it than sealing air or am I missing something?
 

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there have to be some structural reinforcements.
That's why real tubeless tires have a lower rolling resistance
than normal tires with stan's or eclipse.
The air tight layer in a tubeless tire should be
lighter than the lightest tube, though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
structure

Roger G said:
there have to be some structural reinforcements.
That's why real tubeless tires have a lower rolling resistance
than normal tires with stan's or eclipse.
The air tight layer in a tubeless tire should be
lighter than the lightest tube, though.
I don't doubt that there are structural enhancements, but they must be significantly more than what a 120g tube provides. Why do tubeless tires add so much more stuff in there than essentially glueing a tube to the inside? It seems you are convinced that the added structure is the reason tubeless tires have a lower RR. Some days I beleive that, some days I don't. Nevertheless I don't think the added rotating weight is worth it.
 

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imagination...

Roger G said:
there have to be some structural reinforcements.
That's why real tubeless tires have a lower rolling resistance
than normal tires with stan's or eclipse.
The air tight layer in a tubeless tire should be
lighter than the lightest tube, though.
i hope you believe what you say about Rollinresistance;)

to say that as a general rule is simply WRONG! there's plenty of regular race tires that will outperform UST tires when used with sealant.

UST is heavy
UST is expensive
UST is flawed (how many tires or rims leak? ever asked a mechanic or shop about it?)
UST isn't puncture proof. only when sealant is added you get REAL protection.

the Industry knows about the flaws.that's why UST has gone back and selants of all sorts are on the market. ever wondered why all major UST tire manufacturers now offer sealants? you better had a look into pro racers ust tires...

i just spent 1 week in Italy for some intense riding. UST tires suffer BIG TIME there. lots of sharp rocks and spines...only when run with sealant UST tires are puncture proof. without sealant you get a puncture just like when riding a inner tube. so what's the deal in having a heavy tire and wheelset if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do?
 

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Motivated said:
I don't doubt that there are structural enhancements, but they must be significantly more than what a 120g tube provides. Why do tubeless tires add so much more stuff in there than essentially glueing a tube to the inside? It seems you are convinced that the added structure is the reason tubeless tires have a lower RR. Some days I beleive that, some days I don't. Nevertheless I don't think the added rotating weight is worth it.
I think when you compare a UST tire to a standard tire and tube, the UST tire needs more material because it needs to be more pucture resistant than the tube/tire combo. If you get a flat with a tube, you just patch it or put in a new tube, where it's much more of a hassle to deal with a flat on a UST tire. I think (and hope) that eventually the manufacturers will settle on a standard that combines the best of UST and Stan's/Eclipse. Maybe a tire and rim with the UST bead interface, but a lighter tire that need sealant, and a rim that needs a rim strip to seal.
 

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Heavier casings and thicker beads...

UST tires are DESGINED to be run tubeless. Besdies basically adding a tube-like lining to the casing, the heavier beads which keep the tire on the rims are thicker and heavier.

Nino meations adding sealent. The majhor comapnies that are selling sealent are saying they are for the LIGHTER versions for EXTRA protection, not required. If you are rding in areas with really sharp rocks are lots of thorns, than sealent can't huert or Tubeless Slime. BUT if you ride in just rooty, loamy, hardpack and gravel trails like we have in SFLA or most the East Cost, then it's not needed. (extra weight.)

I have been running uST rims and UST tires for alomst 4 yrs (basically since Mavic realeased them.) and have had ZERO, ZERO flats and basically almost not fast leaking tires or rims (3 sets of wheels and many, many tires.)

I matter of fact, my Hutchinson Bull Bog UST Light tires have had 60 psi in them for over 2 weeks after mounting them with NO air loss. After riding and storing the bike, 32psi for 2 weeks with no air loss and no sealent!!

UST tires are gewtting lighter and more choices. BUT Hardcore raceers looking to save every amount of weight are better off using regualr sealed tires.

I am looking to try the Geax and Bontrager "Tubeless Ready" tires which are regular tires slighty re-enforced with thicker UST style beads. Tis might be the best of both worlds.

For me the major disapointment with UST is that only Maivc make UST rims (at least in the US.) Stan's rimstrips or Eclipse/DT Swiss are nice choices, but just not the same. Everyone knows stan's rimstrip issues and with Eclipse/DT Swiss, when the glue from the tape wears out you need to replace it. If these could be permanetly glued down, then we might have a REAL viable alternative to UST rims.

Sorry for the slight rant.....
 

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Mike, it coming...

Geax and Bontrager vare producing these "Tubeless Ready" tires right now.

Hutchinson supposedly is going to follow soon. I hope Schwalbe is aslo doing this.
 

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@ nino:
Well, I race with eclipse and use real tubeless for hard training rides. So much for that.
A little more rolling resistance is better than a lot more weight, I think.
Of course you can't compare a Vertical UST with a Racing Ralph eclipse. :rolleyes:

UST is not expensive!
Even if you only take one tube per tire into account (which is unrealistic)
they don't cost more than a normal tire/tube combination.

My UST rims don't leak. At least they leak much, much less than my eclipse-set
and even that is quite satisfactory. Sure, sealant with UST is the ideal combination.
That's why I ride my UST-tires with eclipse-valves. 30 seconds to mend a punkture. :)

Eclipse isn't what I would call flawless either.
You can easily can get an imbalanced tire when all the goo dries out in one spot
(and it does dry out eventually). Punkture protection is back to normal then, too.
You need at least a second wheelset (so much for "expensive" UST) because
changing a tire on race day with eclipse is not advisable.

But hey - I love my Nokians with eclipse and will not race anything else in the near future. :cool:

R
 

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DIRT BOY said:
Geax and Bontrager are producing these "Tubeless Ready" tires right now.

Hutchinson supposedly is going to follow soon. I hope Schwalbe is aslo doing this.
The Bonty and Geax tires also have stronger casings than a standard tire. Their main weight savings is in the air-tight layer. It is not totally air tight. It just makes the casing less porous, requiring a sealant (and much less sealant than DIY methods) to hold air.

They both have a UST spec bead which is bigger and heavier than a standard tire bead.

BTW the Geax TNT sealant ready tires will be available in early Summer.
 

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DIRT BOY said:
Stan's rimstrips or Eclipse/DT Swiss are nice choices, but just not the same. Everyone knows stan's rimstrip issues and with Eclipse/DT Swiss, when the glue from the tape wears out you need to replace it. If these could be permanetly glued down, then we might have a REAL viable alternative to UST rims.

Sorry for the slight rant.....
Eclipse has a new tape since almost 2 years that is holding much better than the 1st one...no more problems in that area;)
 

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I know the weights on tubeless tires are coming down... The main reason they were so heavy to begin with was to add puncture resistance to the (vulnerable) sidewall casings and to build a good seal at the bead- an area where normally only clinching was a consideration.

The rolling resistance on a tubeless tire at a given pressure will always be less than a tubed tire. It is simply a matter of surface friction between the tube and tire diminishing the ability of the tire to absorb minute changes in the trail surface verses resisting them. I agree- tubless have come a long way but they still have a ways to come yet. Much like the disc brakes of 8 years ago. Be patient and there will be no question they are the way to go in coming years. You don't see many tubed bias ply tires on cars anymore do you?

As far as air leakage goes- I think this is an area where you'll see some improvement. No natural rubber, or combination of natural rubber tire will hold all it's pressure due to diffused air. But then again a tube and tire combo still looses several psi each week as well. I think perhaps tire manufactures will use dual compounds on the inside of the tire in the future to help mitigate diffused air leakage.
 

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RockyRider said:
I know the weights on tubeless tires are coming down... The main reason they were so heavy to begin with was to add puncture resistance to the (vulnerable) sidewall casings and to build a good seal at the bead- an area where normally only clinching was a consideration.

The rolling resistance on a tubeless tire at a given pressure will always be less than a tubed tire. It is simply a matter of surface friction between the tube and tire diminishing the ability of the tire to absorb minute changes in the trail surface verses resisting them. I agree- tubless have come a long way but they still have a ways to come yet. Much like the disc brakes of 8 years ago. Be patient and there will be no question they are the way to go in coming years. You don't see many tubed bias ply tires on cars anymore do you?

As far as air leakage goes- I think this is an area where you'll see some improvement. No natural rubber, or combination of natural rubber tire will hold all it's pressure due to diffused air. But then again a tube and tire combo still looses several psi each week as well. I think perhaps tire manufactures will use dual compounds on the inside of the tire in the future to help mitigate diffused air leakage.
don't compare tubeless to tubed tires! there's no discussion that tubed tires in general lose over tubeless although your saying that tubeless are faster than tubed tires also isn't true as UST tires vary big time too...

cars tires are heavy. no need to make them lighter. that's why they are airthight and bombproof. you also never see a rollingresistance reading everywhere on cars tires, don't you? there's simply no interest in that.

on a bike we have only the limited rider force. therefore tires need to be light which makes them prone to get flats and we also need low rollingresistance. so far UST tires just didn't
cover both and without sealant you never have the perfect puncture proof tire anyway, regardless of how heavy they are. a nail will always be able to cut through because we don't have steel belted tires like cars have...

industry insiders (tire manufacturers) know well that UST is flawed. they are slowly progressing in the direction of making lighter tires that need sealant. that's the way to go. racers will always look for an edge so the regular, lightweight tires will give you that weight advantage on top.
 

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shiggy said:
The Bonty and Geax tires also have stronger casings than a standard tire. Their main weight savings is in the air-tight layer. It is not totally air tight. It just makes the casing less porous, requiring a sealant (and much less sealant than DIY methods) to hold air.

They both have a UST spec bead which is bigger and heavier than a standard tire bead.

BTW the Geax TNT sealant ready tires will be available in early Summer.
Shiggy:

Do you know WHERE to get the Bontrager sealant and tires? My local bike dealer just mumbles something about it being on backorder AFTER I educated them on the esistence of these products,

I want to try to get: 1). My Racing Ralphs millions of very tiny sidewall fissures to seal--with the potentially superior sealing ability of the Bontrager sealant (also, in that attempt, is the Geax sealant available, and where?). The Stan's stuff can't seal those micro-fissures....

2). If that doesn't work, locate some Bontrager Revolt Xs (2.2) and start over.

Thanks, anyone for any info.
 

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nino said:
don't compare tubeless to tubed tires! there's no discussion that tubed tires in general lose over tubeless although your saying that tubeless are faster than tubed tires also isn't true as UST tires vary big time too...

cars tires are heavy. no need to make them lighter. that's why they are airthight and bombproof. you also never see a rollingresistance reading everywhere on cars tires, don't you? there's simply no interest in that.

on a bike we have only the limited rider force. therefore tires need to be light which makes them prone to get flats and we also need low rollingresistance. so far UST tires just didn't
cover both and without sealant you never have the perfect puncture proof tire anyway, regardless of how heavy they are. a nail will always be able to cut through because we don't have steel belted tires like cars have...

industry insiders (tire manufacturers) know well that UST is flawed. they are slowly progressing in the direction of making lighter tires that need sealant. that's the way to go. racers will always look for an edge so the regular, lightweight tires will give you that weight advantage on top.
That's your opinion. Again- much like disc brakes of years ago there is room for improvement. But I doubt tubeless tires are going away.
 

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nino said:
i

i just spent 1 week in Italy for some intense riding. UST tires suffer BIG TIME there. lots of sharp rocks and spines...only when run with sealant UST tires are puncture proof. without sealant you get a puncture just like when riding a inner tube. so what's the deal in having a heavy tire and wheelset if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do?
ever ride Tunnel in Santa Barbara...I doubt any trail in the world could be more rockier...anyway love the Tubeless set-up....Mavic EX823's with Michelins and stans goo...never had a flat in 2 years...NEVER and I ride rocky stuff all the time with drops too
 

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I only have a ust setup for my rear wheel, the front has a tube. I run an IRC mythos XC tubeless tire in the back. It held it's air pressure for 6 months over the winter outside in a shed while the front lost it's air.
I'm building a up a new bike, a turner burner. I bought an IRC mythos XC regular tire for the front. The UST mythos is a 2.1 inch tire so is the front one I just bought. With both tires inflated to the same amount the front non UST tire is noticably smaller than it's rear counterpart. I assume this is due to the heavier tire casing.
 

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I'm whictha

nino said:
UST is heavy
UST is expensive
UST is flawed (how many tires or rims leak? ever asked a mechanic or shop about it?)
UST isn't puncture proof. only when sealant is added you get REAL protection.
For my particular style, I change my tires up all the time for conditions. I use Epicwolves or other big knobbies for looser conditions or for general trailriding, Python Airlites or Kenda Karmas for faster hardpack or racing, etc.

I can't afford multiple wheelsets, so that means I change my tires all the time. I tried homebrew tubeless with decent success, but it was a total PITA when it came to changing tires out.

That, and UST is heavier than a regular tire with Lunarlite tube (especially when you get sealant in the UST rig), the tires are way pricier and harder to find, and again, the leakage issue.

I'll stick to my tubes for now until UST is more compeditive.
 

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otis24 said:
...With both tires inflated to the same amount the front non UST tire is noticably smaller than it's rear counterpart. I assume this is due to the heavier tire casing.
More likely because they came out of different moulds. UST and standard tires require different toolings.
 

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pimpbot said:
For my particular style, I change my tires up all the time for conditions. I use Epicwolves or other big knobbies for looser conditions or for general trailriding, Python Airlites or Kenda Karmas for faster hardpack or racing, etc.
I can't afford multiple wheelsets, so that means I change my tires all the time. I tried homebrew tubeless with decent success, but it was a total PITA when it came to changing tires out.
That, and UST is heavier than a regular tire with Lunarlite tube (especially when you get sealant in the UST rig), the tires are way pricier and harder to find, and again, the leakage issue.
I'll stick to my tubes for now until UST is more compeditive.
Same problem here. I have more than one wheelset, but there is always a favourite... so I will use that. This year I will be racing almost every weekend in different parts of my small country and in the neighbouring Austria and Slovakia. The terrain is completely different in each place and so is the weather... Sometimes I take three pairs of tires and decide on the spot which to use. I tried UST - it's not the system that allows a quick change half an hour before the race. You need soap, water and a clean place...

Nino really wants me to try Eclipse, but then I would have to clone my favourite wheelset (twice), and mess around changing the cassette (or but 2 extra). Also I usually travel with others to races, and there is limited space in cars - they wouldn't like me carry two extra wheelsets...

So this season I'm staying with tubes.

-b
 
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