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2,649 Posts
Uhhh, please take Shaheebs comments about longer gooderer and sliding and 'making' the bike turn with a huge grain of salt. I cannot begin to even remember all the riders of all types I have ridden with over the years, but Shaheeb is in the top 2% of them that work for a living and to my knowledge never held a pro license or a GoPro in anger. When you watch an advertainment video of pros shredding, you need to realize that Shaheeb could be an extra on any of these edits. What is the point of me saying this? That new school geo really requires new school technique.
As for the longer/slacker wave it has hit the wall and terminated it's 5 year hyper drive charge. Like so many other sports that progressed mightily, like skis, snowboards, tennis, motocross etc etc, there is a time when the real big changes stop. Skis and snowboards are not getting any fatter or longer. Tennis rackets are not the size of a 29" wheel. motocross stopped the travel increases where it is decades ago. A decade later the geometry 'revisions' dropped down to minuscule refinements.
Nowadays it's all about tuning, 1/2 degree here, a few mm's there. We have already seen chainstays growing and tall guys complaining they are not long enough. As many have pointed out, the front wheel in the next county has already been done, and many can't effectively weight the front wheel, reduced offset or not. Chris Porter has been preaching and influencing the LOOOOONGER SLAAAACKER for many years, hence the Geometron. POLE followed. Maybe a couple others? How many are as long? It's not like the fringe has been hiding, since the introduction of Forward Geo by Mondraker it has been a regular point of articles. The outer limit has been set, other might go into POLE or Porter territory, but there won't be many. I think many realize we have already jumped the shark. Mondraker has even pulled back a bit since the introduction of Forward Geometry. When looking at Cesars current geometry, it is far from the ragged edge of longer slacker that he started, when, as a World Cup pro downhiller, was on a 'large' when others his height were all on mediums. There are more than a couple WC DH racers now on 'undersize' frames. If one cannot control the front wheel, there is not control.
Something else that has happened in the last few years, the bullshit STA measuring method. At the same time the growing Reach numbers were pushing the front wheel out, the industry started measuring the STA at the Stack line. Regardless of where the seat actually ended up. Since there are not 2 bikes with the same dog leg in the seat tube, where the seat actually lands is completely random in the world of comparability. The designers would make sure that as the post passed the Stack line the 'faux' STA would measure 76-77ish, the required numbers for acceptability. But most of the seat POST angles are much slacker than the claimed STA, and a rider of average height could easily be on a sub 73 STA. This pushes the riders weight further from the front wheel which is already way in front of the BB due to increased Reach and slacker HTAs. Now, many riders are not too comfortable with the effective TT length, NOT the TT length listed on the Geometry Chart which is based on the Stack line, but the one that the riders seat height/Post angle actually nets. So, instead of using the stock 40 or 50mm stem.... they reach for a 30-40 to sit up a bit more, or add some steerer tube spacers and a taller bar or all of the above, further taking weight off the front wheel. Trimming a thumbs breadth of fork offset is not enough to compensate for the riders weight moving further and further from the front wheel.
For the record I like the pretty long and slacker feel. I ride a large Flux with 2 degree Works components headset. Jumping up a size gives me a lot more length and stability, as does the now 65.5 HTA. I know that a totally contemporary 27.5 bike should have a 63/64 HTA but not a ride goes by that I don't wonder about ordering a 1 degree headset from Works as the front end goes over there when I wanted it right here.. Of course not the high speed sections, but the twisties where staying focused and over the stem is hard for an old man. Maybe it's time for a ride clinic...
DT
As for the longer/slacker wave it has hit the wall and terminated it's 5 year hyper drive charge. Like so many other sports that progressed mightily, like skis, snowboards, tennis, motocross etc etc, there is a time when the real big changes stop. Skis and snowboards are not getting any fatter or longer. Tennis rackets are not the size of a 29" wheel. motocross stopped the travel increases where it is decades ago. A decade later the geometry 'revisions' dropped down to minuscule refinements.
Nowadays it's all about tuning, 1/2 degree here, a few mm's there. We have already seen chainstays growing and tall guys complaining they are not long enough. As many have pointed out, the front wheel in the next county has already been done, and many can't effectively weight the front wheel, reduced offset or not. Chris Porter has been preaching and influencing the LOOOOONGER SLAAAACKER for many years, hence the Geometron. POLE followed. Maybe a couple others? How many are as long? It's not like the fringe has been hiding, since the introduction of Forward Geo by Mondraker it has been a regular point of articles. The outer limit has been set, other might go into POLE or Porter territory, but there won't be many. I think many realize we have already jumped the shark. Mondraker has even pulled back a bit since the introduction of Forward Geometry. When looking at Cesars current geometry, it is far from the ragged edge of longer slacker that he started, when, as a World Cup pro downhiller, was on a 'large' when others his height were all on mediums. There are more than a couple WC DH racers now on 'undersize' frames. If one cannot control the front wheel, there is not control.
Something else that has happened in the last few years, the bullshit STA measuring method. At the same time the growing Reach numbers were pushing the front wheel out, the industry started measuring the STA at the Stack line. Regardless of where the seat actually ended up. Since there are not 2 bikes with the same dog leg in the seat tube, where the seat actually lands is completely random in the world of comparability. The designers would make sure that as the post passed the Stack line the 'faux' STA would measure 76-77ish, the required numbers for acceptability. But most of the seat POST angles are much slacker than the claimed STA, and a rider of average height could easily be on a sub 73 STA. This pushes the riders weight further from the front wheel which is already way in front of the BB due to increased Reach and slacker HTAs. Now, many riders are not too comfortable with the effective TT length, NOT the TT length listed on the Geometry Chart which is based on the Stack line, but the one that the riders seat height/Post angle actually nets. So, instead of using the stock 40 or 50mm stem.... they reach for a 30-40 to sit up a bit more, or add some steerer tube spacers and a taller bar or all of the above, further taking weight off the front wheel. Trimming a thumbs breadth of fork offset is not enough to compensate for the riders weight moving further and further from the front wheel.
For the record I like the pretty long and slacker feel. I ride a large Flux with 2 degree Works components headset. Jumping up a size gives me a lot more length and stability, as does the now 65.5 HTA. I know that a totally contemporary 27.5 bike should have a 63/64 HTA but not a ride goes by that I don't wonder about ordering a 1 degree headset from Works as the front end goes over there when I wanted it right here.. Of course not the high speed sections, but the twisties where staying focused and over the stem is hard for an old man. Maybe it's time for a ride clinic...
DT