punkndrublic said:
How about this one, head over to Oaks and climb the *****es and look for a trail sign past the kiosk at the top of the second *****. I can guarantee you won't find a single trail marker of any sort denoting trail names, legal or whatever anywhere on the hill. There are also no maps of trails on the hill. The only thing they have marked are down below and all it would take is one instance of a missing sign and a contested ticket and then the rangers go back to managing land and give up their fantasy of being cops.
I also know of a good many trails at O'Neil that don't have signage and I'm sure I can find others in other parks if I cared to look.
Also, if rangers unfairly apply enforcement then they will end up in a hotbed of trouble as well. Dog walkers need to be cited if off leash, horses being run - ticket, hikers on illegal trails - ticket, geocache idiots off trail - fined, bobcats not using the portapotty - blamo... You get the idea. Like I said, rangers won't be citing for long. The only way that might change is if the county sees the revenue stream and begins to cite heavily, then rangers will no longer manage lands and instead bring in money. However, with the incompetience in the county park system, I sincerely doubt that'll happen.
All it is going to take is one Mike Reeder type and this whole game is over.
No need for anger here.
I don't frequent S.O., and I did state in my post that the ones I frequent were pretty clear in the messages; but I do know S.O. has trail maps and from what I recollect; there are markers that correspond to the trails on their maps. I'm not sure about the status of the plethora of trails in the upper area, and I'm not even sure if they are an actual part of the park, but I will do some research on those. One thing I've learned in the past is that if I don't know something, I take steps to find the answers. I cannot speak intelligently on those particular trails, but I'll certainly find out.
Hypothetically speaking; I think it is safe to say that if there is an official map that only shows only one large loop trail, but there are 15 smaller trails snaking in-between the main loop trail; a pretty solid case could be stated that the interim trails were clearly not shown on the map, and could be easily identified and avoided by users; and a citation would stick.
So I think the operative word is "mapped legal trail", not just a "trail".
Also, I don't believe the rangers will be singling out any group, or actively looking to hand out citations. The citations simply just give them the ability to more efficiently handle some situations, and will more-than-likely be used as a last resort after education and advisements have not worked. A lot will also probably depend on the demeanor of the user.
The reason I originally posted here about bikers (not hikers, dog owners, etc....), was due to the inference of a pm session to discuss "more options" than the "legal" trails, and the fact that this is a biker site. I thought is was prudent to let people know that it's not wise these days to be pm'ing back and forth and introducing riders to unauthorized trails. It's simply not a good practice, and if mountain bikers start getting cited on unauthorized trails, it won't send a good message for our sport.
Again, there are plenty of legal trail options in Orange County, and quite a few other optional trails on private and/or some unimproved city areas that are somewhat uncontrolled.
But in the County parks the message is pretty clear, and in many of the other public and private preserve areas, the fencing and signage is also clear.
Bottom line to be safe is to know where you are riding, and:
1. If it is an established area with a map of the trails available from the land manager; then stick only to the mapped trails.
2. If it is an area that does not have a map, then make sure it is an area that is legal to enter, i.e.…look for fences and signs. If you have to go around, over or under a wire fence; it's a pretty good bet you're not supposed to be there. And just because you may find a cut or break in the fence with a nice trail running past it; just the presence of a fence should give a clue to the status of the area.
3. If there is a land owner or land managers sign that states no trespassing or similar wording (even if the sign is faded or old), don't ride there.
I'm not saying that there are not mixed signals out there, because I do know of quite a few trails that are in areas that no one seems to have a clear jurisdiction on, and no agency (public or private)seems to be concerned with (and the officials that are aware of them don't seem to have a problem). But as it pertains to the County operated parks, I still think they have their ducks in a row and it is still up to the user to educate themselves on the trails and rules. And as it pertains to areas that have fencing and signs in place, the signals are clear and should be heeded.
If you have questions on a particular area, it's not a bad idea to speak to the land managers to get the straight scoop; and if a popular trail is sending a mixed signal, there are regular public forums to bring these to the table and work with the land managers to clear up these types of questions.
I've always found it's better to get involved and find out the correct answers, and then work towards change through the proper channels if there are unclear signals out there.
Again, no matter how you look at it; introducing people to popular unauthorized or questionable trails is not a good practice, and one can be cited if it's not on the authorized map for the area. It's not worth the risk of a citation and the detriment to the reputation of our sport to ignore some of the obvious signals that most of us can recognize that a particular trail may not be completely legal.
Have fun riding out there.
Thanks
