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Saw that last night they are starting to build some stairs on "The Wall"....is this the beginning of the end for the most technical section of a JCOS park?
please don't say it's so.
please don't say it's so.
Whats going on @Deer Creek?
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Nope. The stair section will be an alternative route - leaving 'rock wall' intact. The project just started so I have yet to visit it but I'm confident the end product will be as we have discussed in the shop.preparation_h said:
As a side note, you might be totally surprised to hear about the number of complaints we have been getting regarding the rock wall and the general evolution of DC into a more technical trail system. Things like "I used to be able to ride the whole thing but now it's too rocky" are regularly passed on to us. Not just a few - A LOT of riders have relayed this type of message to the workers at DC. Interesting and suprising.
Just curious: Who has climbed the 'rock wall' lately? I used to be able to do it once a while a few years back on my gearie but the section has degraded since then and I ride single speed exclusively now (my convienent excuses).
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I've heard of people making it under certain conditions this year but it has like a 99.9 percent failure rate for us mere mortals, but thats ok, It's sections like this that I set season goals for.(Reasons for keeping). What else is going on up there? is there a new trail about to be connected?Carl Mega said:
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I haven't been on DC in over a month but DCC has changed tons over the years. Remember about 5 years ago when they tried to turn the wall and the front climb into a smooth section? Man, that pissed me off and that was the start of how it has deteriorated into what it is today. I had know idea what the hell they were thinking buy pushing dirt and scraping. 2 or 3 rains later, the wall was a river and it made it a lot worse than what it was.Carl Mega said:
IMO, riders who complain about tough or technical trails should just pound sand and stick to the bike paths. We should not dumb trails down to the lowest common demoninator and the wall does not NEED a staircase!!! That wall section acts as a selective obstacle and it serves to turn away those who are not yet ready for the trail, hikers, bikers, and horses alike! I just don't understand why so many people feel trails should be tamed to their capabilities instead of developing their capabilities to meet the demands of the trail.
It's OK, I'm calm now....
The wall can still be cleaned; I can still do it. There are a few crux moves to be able to pull it off and my success rate is about 75% from the bottom and is mostly dependent on my fitness. My son & I spent several hours on many different rides at DC just working on the wall moves so I've had a lot of opportunity to practice on it. I've only seen one person clean the wall on their first try and that guy was a MTB Trials rider.
love that section as is!
that is an insane(to me) wall, yet i love attempting it every time, and once even made it over half way!!!woo-hoo! In fact, i finally this season went down it the whole way(it took swithching back to a fully rigid ride though)! The best reason to keep it the way it is is because it cuts down on traffic on the upper loops. progress stinks.
that is an insane(to me) wall, yet i love attempting it every time, and once even made it over half way!!!woo-hoo! In fact, i finally this season went down it the whole way(it took swithching back to a fully rigid ride though)! The best reason to keep it the way it is is because it cuts down on traffic on the upper loops. progress stinks.
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That section has been the bain of my existence for the last 3 years. I hate it, but love it at the same time. I really hope they don't hack it up. I've only SEEN one guy clean it going up - which inspires me. While there are some equally tough sections on White Ranch and Dakota Ridge/MW, that section at DC is what I always think of when someone mentions "technical climbing".
Maybe they should just install an escalator - then everyone could clean it.
Maybe they should just install an escalator - then everyone could clean it.
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Nothing much else going on there. We did close an illegal trail (barely qualified as a trail) at DCP a while back but that's about it.preparation_h said:
I was initially worried when I heard about the rock wall improvement but my fears have since been relieved. I'm certain the end product will be consistent with the discussions we've had at the shop and of little impact to the mtb community.
I usually don't reply to some of the more, ummm, passionate posts regarding JCOS. No offense but many of the rants I've read suffer from one or more of the following flaws: straight up misinformation, skewed perception of 'open space', misunderstanding of multiuse, lack of knowledge regarding building sustainable trails in a high usage area, and a mtb-centric view of trail usage, maintenance and design. Even though I work for JCOS - I don't think we are perfect . IMHO, mistakes have been made. Still, I understand the difficult position we are in trying to balance different user group needs coupled with building and maintaining trails in less than ideal conditions. In the big picture, JCOS is an extremely bike friendly land management organization. Don't take my word for it: call IMBA and ask them what they think.
*This does not nec. apply to you, PH.
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OK, I hiked up DCC this evening in the rain to see what was going on with the trail. I don't have a bone to pick with you personally, I have no clue as to your position or authority within JCOS, but if you're in a position to answer a few questions, what purpose does that staircase serve? It's obviously not for cyclist or horses, so what hiker needs that staircase to ascend the trail? Seriously, what's next, paving, escalators & a diaper change station?Carl Mega said:
Quite frankly I find the building of that staircase bizarre, disheartening, and hypocritical and I pray that JCOS doesn't make a mess out of Deer Creek like they did Dakota Ridge. If the concern is hiker/cyclist conflict on the that portion of the trail, why doesn't JCOS simply extend the "hiker only" Meadowlark Trail from the bridge below the "wall" straight across the Plymouth Creek trail and tie it into the Plymouth Mtn. trail above? It kills me that JCOS doesn't allow night riding on the trails and the reasoning I've been given is concerns for the local wildlife but JCOS doesn't have any problem dragging generators, jackhammers, backhoes, excavators, and scapers all over hell out there. Further, JCOS would serve Deer Creek users a lot more by enforcing the "pet excrement" regulation on horse owners. I counted over dozen piles of manure on the trail from the trail head to the "wall" and horsesh!t is a well known disease vector for wildlife.
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I generally agree with you - particularly your point about the abundance of horse manure and JCOS's reluctance to at least encourage horse people to clean up their waste. The worst effect of this is actually the flies that hatch out of these dung piles unfortunately impacting the destitute hikers more than any other user.
From my perspective, the staircases are unnecessary and most importantly a waste of JCOS resources to build. I'm not sure what rationale is used to determine that hikers care about and benefit from these staircases on the Front Range. Monies would be better spent on drainage and erosion control and would meet the stated goal of "building sustainable trails in a high usage area".
Regarding some of the previous posts in this thread, not all bikers like the same type of riding. Many like me prefer smoother but steep trails that offer more of an aerobic/anaerobic workout without the gnarly rock gardens. But I mountain bike for the conditioning and stress relief as well as a way to get close to nature.
I do think we are fortunate, however, to have JCOS and benefit greatly from the work they do. The Front Range has a huge amount of public single track thanks to JCOS.
From my perspective, the staircases are unnecessary and most importantly a waste of JCOS resources to build. I'm not sure what rationale is used to determine that hikers care about and benefit from these staircases on the Front Range. Monies would be better spent on drainage and erosion control and would meet the stated goal of "building sustainable trails in a high usage area".
Regarding some of the previous posts in this thread, not all bikers like the same type of riding. Many like me prefer smoother but steep trails that offer more of an aerobic/anaerobic workout without the gnarly rock gardens. But I mountain bike for the conditioning and stress relief as well as a way to get close to nature.
I do think we are fortunate, however, to have JCOS and benefit greatly from the work they do. The Front Range has a huge amount of public single track thanks to JCOS.
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I spent some time on the phone with Kim Fredericks, the JCOS Trails Supervisor, yesterday talking about what's going on at Deer Creek and some other trail issues. Kim seems a nice guy, patient, very informative, and more than willing to talk about issues.preparation_h said:
He said they're indeed putting the staircase in to give hikers a route up and to reduce conflict with cyclists. I question the validity of that. Reducing conflict is always good, but after looking at the staircase spacing, unless they put up barriers to keep cyclists off of it, it's going to be the new fast way down which will result in more conflict, not less. I recommended that if reducing user conflict on the wall was their goal, just have the hiker-only Meadowlark Trail cross the Plymouth Creek Trail just across from the bridge and then connect to the Plymouth Mtn. Trail above it. There is a natural line to accomplish this without making the hikers climb too steep of a slope. This gets hikers completely out of the wall chokepoint/trail confluence. He thought that was an interesting idea but they were already committed to the staircase.
On the plus side, as long as they leave the rest of the wall open (which he said they were), the staircase is going to make the climb harder as it took out a good section of the line I needed to make the climb. I made my point to Kim that anytime JCOS smooths multi-use trails, it only increases user conflict as smooth trails means speeds go up for cyclists and speed is the number one cause of user conflict. He made his point that cyclists aren't the only trail users which I fully understand.
While talking to him, I asked if there were any plans for MTB-only trails. He said no, none on the horizon and surprised me when he said that they don't get feedback from cyclist asking for it! He said if they received user demand for it, they would do what they could to accomodate. He also said that the "Pet Excrement" regulation at JCOS was largely unenforceable and didn't apply to horses anyway; they're viewed as livestock. His opinion was that horse crap on the trails was not as big a problem as dog crap. I take just the opposite view, as dogs don't normally unload in the middle of the trail and they don't cause me to have to ride over a trail surface that looks like a feedlot after it rains.
Just so my own position is clear, I appreciate JCOS's efforts; I don't see them as the devil. If anything, the phone call has motivated me to get more informed & involved. Personally, after riding the Front Range trails since '90, I'm tired of seeing MTB'ers being the last consideration (not that JCOS does this intentionally). Maybe it's just me, but when I go to any JCOS trail, the vast majority of users I see are MTB'ers. If we're the primary users, then I'd like to see us have more heavily weighted input into trail development. I don't begrudge the hiking community hiking-only trails, but I would like to see MTB'ers given the same consideration.
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hey dwf i dont mean to rain on your parade but kim fredericks is giving you a load of bs. that guy is lying about not discussing single use mtb trails with enthusiasts. he met with the cdcc last year and discussed building a trail with them. but it aint ever gonna happen. kim does not care about mtbers and never will because he does not ride. see how its a waste of time with the guy? he lies and speaks double talk. the cdcc got nowhere with jeffco yet they tried and now kim acts like it never happened. i say screw that guy and jeffco's bs politics. they can close every ranch or park for all i care. what jeffco needs is to replace kim with someone who understands the complexities of having multi use trails next to a metro area of 3 million people. white ranch could be just like mcdowell park in pheonix (where they use to hold the cactus cup) but guys like kim fredericks will NEVER get it.DWF said:
i am a user demanding single use trails. i will sign petitions and help build. but i will not be treated like some child by jeffco or boulder co. to get to that point. we need to take over the trails by group numbers and force. i say wake up boulder open space by launching a protest ride down eldorado canyon trail. that's what i have always wanted to do to say screw you to these elitist bastards.
i rode in el paso county saturday and their singletrack BLOWS JEFFCO'S AWAY. its not like this in other front range areas so why do we accept this bs?
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El Passo is good for a reason ...
have gotten involved. Between the Trails Coalition and Medicine Wheel (and some
other groups I can't remember the names of), the County and City have both
embraced Mountain Biking. But it took years.
It's still the case that only part of Garden of the Gods is open to MTBers, but
that's bettern than none of it being open (which is how it used to be).
I know this isn't glamorous, but you just gotta get involved. The politicians will
either love ya or hate ya, and then you can help get rid of the ones that hate
ya.
The trails in El Passo County are good for a very good reason: the people theredream4est said:
have gotten involved. Between the Trails Coalition and Medicine Wheel (and some
other groups I can't remember the names of), the County and City have both
embraced Mountain Biking. But it took years.
It's still the case that only part of Garden of the Gods is open to MTBers, but
that's bettern than none of it being open (which is how it used to be).
I know this isn't glamorous, but you just gotta get involved. The politicians will
either love ya or hate ya, and then you can help get rid of the ones that hate
ya.
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Hard to do it justice with pictures...but here is a pic of the upper (harder) section for anyone who hasn't been there. The stairs are going along the left side of this route (looking up the hill) and appear to be cut out of the bushes more than the rock itself. I haven't been up there in about a week though. There was also some new lumber at the top of Red Mesa loop - so not sure if they are going to make some changes up there as well. I truly hope not.Steve71 said:
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You are such a clown and the tone and talking points in your message prove your lack of knowledge regarding the REAL situation at OS.
First off, Kim Fredricks has worked at JCOS for something like 20 years and has helped develop JCOS into one of the best MULTI-USE open space trail networks in the country. Anyone who knows him, knows about his dedication to ensuring that ALL park visitors have a positive experience. I'm a mountain biker who works at JCOS and I talk mtb issues with Kim somewhat frequently and he is anything but anti-mtb. He's super friendly and knowledgeable. While not a mtber (he does ride bikes), he's positive about mtbers and supports their usage on JCOS. Again, don't take my work on it - ask Tim B at IMBA about Kim. Please. The fact that you are calling for the termination of a person who has 20 years of service, who possesses a proven and award winning track record and who is supported by the major mtb organization in the USA illustrates your myopic and completely under-thought view point.
As far as the CDCC meeting goes, I won't pretend to speak for Kim or JCOS or address the finer points of the meeting but it is possible that this meeting provided the framework for a Freeride area that is currently in the planning stages. Right now it's called the 'Challenge Area' and it *may* be located on N. Table mountain. My guess is Kim was talking about a mtb-only PARK (or a enough trail that it essentially would be a park). My understanding that there has not been enough of a public demand (read: mtbers) asking for a single use mtb park. There's a buzz around that if Denver area mtbers were more organized, showed our true numbers and demanded our own park - we'd get it. You make it sound like Jeffco should stop all other projects and dedicate all their resources to create this mtb only park because you had ONE meeting with Kim. Newsflash for you: creating a new park takes years. It demands the work and support of many, many people. There's so much work involved regarding public buy-in, acquisition, planning, enviromental work/assessment, and eventual construction it's not even funny. You will need to meet with many people to get JCOS to dedicate all these resources to this type of project. Meeting with Kim is a decent start (mainly because he IS so open to new OS uses) but the planning group, Ralph and Stanton, county commish, etc are where the teeth are. Maybe you should hit the trail task force meetings once in a while.
Speaking of CDCC, if you are a leader in this organization perhaps your time would be better spent actually doing something (a good use of that membership fee) since it seems like this group has fallen off of the map (conveniently after the $$ was collected). Maybe you guys are too busy building dirt jumps for your clients to actually do anything with trails. Hint: DJ ramps are not trails and volunteer work does not involve building DJs for your clients. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but I haven't heard anything from these guys for about 1 year.
I wasn't going to reply to this message but the exaggerations and libelous comments are so egregious that I felt compelled. Normally, I try to answer simple questions and disspell rumors/myths but it bothered me to think that some of the non-posting public would read this guy's comments and accept them as fact.
First off, Kim Fredricks has worked at JCOS for something like 20 years and has helped develop JCOS into one of the best MULTI-USE open space trail networks in the country. Anyone who knows him, knows about his dedication to ensuring that ALL park visitors have a positive experience. I'm a mountain biker who works at JCOS and I talk mtb issues with Kim somewhat frequently and he is anything but anti-mtb. He's super friendly and knowledgeable. While not a mtber (he does ride bikes), he's positive about mtbers and supports their usage on JCOS. Again, don't take my work on it - ask Tim B at IMBA about Kim. Please. The fact that you are calling for the termination of a person who has 20 years of service, who possesses a proven and award winning track record and who is supported by the major mtb organization in the USA illustrates your myopic and completely under-thought view point.
As far as the CDCC meeting goes, I won't pretend to speak for Kim or JCOS or address the finer points of the meeting but it is possible that this meeting provided the framework for a Freeride area that is currently in the planning stages. Right now it's called the 'Challenge Area' and it *may* be located on N. Table mountain. My guess is Kim was talking about a mtb-only PARK (or a enough trail that it essentially would be a park). My understanding that there has not been enough of a public demand (read: mtbers) asking for a single use mtb park. There's a buzz around that if Denver area mtbers were more organized, showed our true numbers and demanded our own park - we'd get it. You make it sound like Jeffco should stop all other projects and dedicate all their resources to create this mtb only park because you had ONE meeting with Kim. Newsflash for you: creating a new park takes years. It demands the work and support of many, many people. There's so much work involved regarding public buy-in, acquisition, planning, enviromental work/assessment, and eventual construction it's not even funny. You will need to meet with many people to get JCOS to dedicate all these resources to this type of project. Meeting with Kim is a decent start (mainly because he IS so open to new OS uses) but the planning group, Ralph and Stanton, county commish, etc are where the teeth are. Maybe you should hit the trail task force meetings once in a while.
Speaking of CDCC, if you are a leader in this organization perhaps your time would be better spent actually doing something (a good use of that membership fee) since it seems like this group has fallen off of the map (conveniently after the $$ was collected). Maybe you guys are too busy building dirt jumps for your clients to actually do anything with trails. Hint: DJ ramps are not trails and volunteer work does not involve building DJs for your clients. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but I haven't heard anything from these guys for about 1 year.
I wasn't going to reply to this message but the exaggerations and libelous comments are so egregious that I felt compelled. Normally, I try to answer simple questions and disspell rumors/myths but it bothered me to think that some of the non-posting public would read this guy's comments and accept them as fact.
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Thanks for the photo. Looks doable with enough momentum, but (as you say) photos are often very deceiving. Still, taking into account the 'photo deception factor', it doesn't look you need a walk around for hikers. But since I haven't seen it for real, I don't really know. So my point is .....well.... I have no point.... I'll just STFU nowSiberianYETI said:Hard to do it justice with pictures...but here is a pic of the upper (harder) section for anyone who hasn't been there. The stairs are going along the left side of this route (looking up the hill) and appear to be cut out of the bushes more than the rock itself. I haven't been up there in about a week though. There was also some new lumber at the top of Red Mesa loop - so not sure if they are going to make some changes up there as well. I truly hope not.
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yes and i guess that's why all the real mtbr's just flock to apex and white ranch. the trails in surrounding counties simply blow them away and will continue for years.it is just as important for the sport (and more important for the kids) to build the local dirt jump spots in the denver metro area as it is the trails. heck the best trails in jeffco are the lake arbor jump trails. of course denver needs that supposed challenge park but you guys acts like we need to beg for it. the technical level of jeffco trails stinks and will continue to do so for a long time. go ride anywhere else and see for yourself that jeffco is so 1995 and sanitized.Carl Mega said:
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Great reply. Nice way of avoiding my points which clearly shows that you have no understanding of the situation. "Uhhh, there are more technical trails around". No **** Sherlock. We are freaking multi-use not dedicated mtb trails. I ride all over the country and Colorado and there are great trails everywhere but it's sure nice to have some 20 odd rides within 20 minutes of my house.
But that's me.
So I guess there is not one "real rider" who uses Jeffco's trails. Not one. Ever. Hundreds of thousands of users per year and they are all Freds. I need to tell some of the expert and pro XC riders I see putting the miles on. Maybe they should ante up the coin and pay you to learn to ride. Then, we all could be 'real riders'.
And....I guess we are not as 1995 as adding cool license plate-ese in our name ala "dreamFORest". Or purposely ignoring capitaliztion and punctuation for effect. Or maybe we could create a bandwidth whore web site with more stylized crap that content.
How kewl.
BTW, how's that CDCC doing again?
Please, make some more outrageous claims and fail to back them up. It's funny.
CM
All opinions are my own and does not nec. reflect JCOS.
But that's me.
So I guess there is not one "real rider" who uses Jeffco's trails. Not one. Ever. Hundreds of thousands of users per year and they are all Freds. I need to tell some of the expert and pro XC riders I see putting the miles on. Maybe they should ante up the coin and pay you to learn to ride. Then, we all could be 'real riders'.
No. Just want a little persuasive argument and quantifiable demonstration of need before we drop a few million on projects. Sorry we can't just do it on your word. Care to do the funding yourself? I'll be there.dream4est said:
And....I guess we are not as 1995 as adding cool license plate-ese in our name ala "dreamFORest". Or purposely ignoring capitaliztion and punctuation for effect. Or maybe we could create a bandwidth whore web site with more stylized crap that content.
How kewl.
BTW, how's that CDCC doing again?
Please, make some more outrageous claims and fail to back them up. It's funny.
CM
All opinions are my own and does not nec. reflect JCOS.
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I will have to say the trail has started to fall apart the last 4 years. More users, lack of moisture, its all dusty, large pits, and rocky now. I use to get up that hill on a regular basis when the park first opened and for a few years after that. Now I can't and it’s not really my fitness.
There is more erosion going on and it’s dry and dusty so your wheels are not hooking up on the rocks and there are like twice as many rocks there now on the wall? Who is carrying these rocks and dropping them of on the upper half of the wall climb???? I am the last person to say lets start making trails less technical but if its going to save the trail then so be it. When DC opened this was truly one of the greatest JCOS rides around for tech stuff. Now it will get dumbed down due to popularity like what is happening at White Ranch. Sad to see but maybe it won’t get any worst?
I will always have the memories of climbing that wall and seeing my heart rate go off the charts! It was such a great accomplishment and that wasn’t even the fun part of that ride!
There is more erosion going on and it’s dry and dusty so your wheels are not hooking up on the rocks and there are like twice as many rocks there now on the wall? Who is carrying these rocks and dropping them of on the upper half of the wall climb???? I am the last person to say lets start making trails less technical but if its going to save the trail then so be it. When DC opened this was truly one of the greatest JCOS rides around for tech stuff. Now it will get dumbed down due to popularity like what is happening at White Ranch. Sad to see but maybe it won’t get any worst?
I will always have the memories of climbing that wall and seeing my heart rate go off the charts! It was such a great accomplishment and that wasn’t even the fun part of that ride!
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