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I know some of you light weight folks can drive the grams down, but what would be my goal? Right now I'm on Roval Control (non-carbon) and they weigh 1650 grams. I do a light bicycle build with 28 spokes, Ray spokes and brass nips around 1500. Should I bump up to 32 spokes? Thoughts.
 

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Cleavage Of The Tetons
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It really depends on what kind of rider you are, IMO.
Light weight has limits...
 

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I'm 170. But was 225lbs for years. I still ride 32 spoke rims. 28 spokes means you're pushing it if you break a spoke and need to ride it out. I use Lilly aluminum nipples and don't have any issues with them and carbon rims. The weight is almost the same.
 

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At #200 I'd def go 32 spokes.

I have a hard time keeping 28 spoke wheels straight at #170 - I am fairly hard on wheels though.
 

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Im 200lbs and recently purchased 29” 30i rims from Nextie that weighed only 360g. I built them with 32h DT 240s and Sapim Lasers and they came our right at 1,400g. They feel plenty stiff for XC/Light trail duties. Time will tell with durability but i do t think i will have issues.

I went 32h to play it safe. I build my own wheels but dont have the experience to know if a 28h build would have worked or not.
 

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Im 200lbs and recently purchased 29” 30i rims from Nextie that weighed only 360g. I built them with 32h DT 240s and Sapim Lasers and they came our right at 1,400g. They feel plenty stiff for XC/Light trail duties. Time will tell with durability but i do t think i will have issues.

I went 32h to play it safe. I build my own wheels but dont have the experience to know if a 28h build would have worked or not.
What rim did you go with?


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Nextie has rims the post up on eBay (didn't order from their website). The 35mm / 30 internal rims have been on there for quite a long time. They were $400 shipped for a pair and both came in right at 360g each.

What rim did you go with?


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32 spokes are not needed for almost any carbon wheelset, even at your weight. For aluminum, yes.

Especially if the rim is 25mm deep and/or wide or greater, it’ll be much stronger than old school aluminum rims.

More than 28 spokes will only serve to weaken a carbon rim. 24 is best on front for XC bikes.

And yes I’ve raced at your weight and owned carbon wheels for years—currently building a new sub-1300g 30.5 ID wheel set to replace my Valors


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If you are 200lbs, what spoke would you lace on a 24h front rim? On my build, 32 lasers laced to my front wheel is fine for XC, but when pushed further I think it could be stiffer.

32 spokes are not needed for almost any carbon wheelset, even at your weight. For aluminum, yes.

Especially if the rim is 25mm deep and/or wide or greater, it’ll be much stronger than old school aluminum rims.

More than 28 spokes will only serve to weaken a carbon rim. 24 is best on front for XC bikes.

And yes I’ve raced at your weight and owned carbon wheels for years—currently building a new sub-1300g 30.5 ID wheel set to replace my Valors


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If you are 200lbs, what spoke would you lace on a 24h front rim? On my build, 32 lasers laced to my front wheel is fine for XC, but when pushed further I think it could be stiffer.
So one thing to collectively realize is that with the strength of carbon rims, especially wider, deeper rims, they hold their own shape without spokes. That's not necessarily the case with aluminum rims.

How to tell: generally carbon rims don't need much truing, if any. Aluminum rims always are needing truing.

2nd way to tell: there's only so much tension that an aluminum rim can hold before it gets pulled out of round, and ruined. Carbon wheels can perform well, even with poorly balanced spoke tension (from bad wheel builders like me).

Thirdly, spokes pull in, not push out. So ideally what you want is a very high tension, low spoke count with carbon rims. I was talked into building with Berd spokes and I'm currently in the process of building with them--they're actually lighter and flex more, which you'd possibly want with stiffer wider rims.

On my Notubes Valors, I've had to replace a couple rear spokes before getting inserts. I've never had to do anything to the front 24h rim, it has all the original spokes and has never needed truing. These wheels are Breck Epic, Wilderness 101, and Marathon Nats finishers, among many other races, to give you perspective.

Last point: try foam inserts! You'll love them. They'll save you thousands of bucks when you rim strike, and in my experience they'll also save you from broken spokes. Haven't had a single rim ding, broken spoke, nor truing issue since I went to Nube inserts (1.5" closed cell foam).
 

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I would agree that 28h on carbon is plenty stiff. Now the big question is what are you calling XC and how hard are you on wheels. I am a Midwestern rider and I weigh in at 230. I am however extremely light on wheels. Growing up on rigid 26er years ago teaches you to avoid most things. Hahaha. You could easily get down into the 1300-1400g range with out running into issues. I am a big fan of revolution or laser spokes. I like alloy poly ax nips as I feel they pivot to the spoke angle a little better than pro-locks or squarx do.
 

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Im 200lbs and recently purchased 29” 30i rims from Nextie that weighed only 360g. I built them with 32h DT 240s and Sapim Lasers and they came our right at 1,400g. They feel plenty stiff for XC/Light trail duties. Time will tell with durability but i do t think i will have issues.

I went 32h to play it safe. I build my own wheels but dont have the experience to know if a 28h build would have worked or not.
I have a similar wheelset Nextie rims, Extralite hubs and I hover between 200-210lbs and while I mostly ride XC, if there's a jump I take it and the wheels have been fine.
 

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I take your point, but there's very little data to support this.
I can appreciate at least the acknowledgement from a wheel builder. It's unfortunate that people aren't given the info that modern carbon wheels are much stronger than aluminum; I hear the same old "build 32h aluminum for hucking."

Here's a video of Danny MacAskill doing everything he can to break a set (try that with aluminum):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc


I'll repeat my own experience from which I feel subjectively like I have a lot of data on a 28h/24h carbon build:

>>>

So one thing to collectively realize is that with the strength of carbon rims, especially wider, deeper rims, they hold their own shape without spokes. That's not necessarily the case with aluminum rims.

How to tell: generally carbon rims don't need much truing, if any. Aluminum rims always are needing truing.

2nd way to tell: there's only so much tension that an aluminum rim can hold before it gets pulled out of round, and ruined. Carbon wheels can perform well, even with poorly balanced spoke tension (from bad wheel builders like me).

Thirdly, spokes pull in, not push out. So ideally what you want is a very high tension, low spoke count with carbon rims. I was talked into building with Berd spokes and I'm currently in the process of building with them--they're actually lighter and flex more, which you'd possibly want with stiffer wider rims.

On my Notubes Valors, I've had to replace a couple rear spokes before getting inserts. I've never had to do anything to the front 24h rim, it has all the original spokes and has never needed truing. These wheels are Breck Epic, Wilderness 101, and Marathon Nats finishers, among many other races, to give you perspective.

Last point: try foam inserts! You'll love them. They'll save you thousands of bucks when you rim strike, and in my experience they'll also save you from broken spokes. Haven't had a single rim ding, broken spoke, nor truing issue since I went to Nube inserts (1.5" closed cell foam).

>>>
 

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I'm interested to hear how a 24h Berd build works as a front wheel on a mountain bike.
 

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I can appreciate at least the acknowledgement from a wheel builder. It's unfortunate that people aren't given the info that modern carbon wheels are much stronger than aluminum; I hear the same old "build 32h aluminum for hucking."

Here's a video of Danny MacAskill doing everything he can to break a set (try that with aluminum):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc


I'll repeat my own experience from which I feel subjectively like I have a lot of data on a 28h/24h carbon build:

>>>

So one thing to collectively realize is that with the strength of carbon rims, especially wider, deeper rims, they hold their own shape without spokes. That's not necessarily the case with aluminum rims.

How to tell: generally carbon rims don't need much truing, if any. Aluminum rims always are needing truing.

2nd way to tell: there's only so much tension that an aluminum rim can hold before it gets pulled out of round, and ruined. Carbon wheels can perform well, even with poorly balanced spoke tension (from bad wheel builders like me).

Thirdly, spokes pull in, not push out. So ideally what you want is a very high tension, low spoke count with carbon rims. I was talked into building with Berd spokes and I'm currently in the process of building with them--they're actually lighter and flex more, which you'd possibly want with stiffer wider rims.

On my Notubes Valors, I've had to replace a couple rear spokes before getting inserts. I've never had to do anything to the front 24h rim, it has all the original spokes and has never needed truing. These wheels are Breck Epic, Wilderness 101, and Marathon Nats finishers, among many other races, to give you perspective.

Last point: try foam inserts! You'll love them. They'll save you thousands of bucks when you rim strike, and in my experience they'll also save you from broken spokes. Haven't had a single rim ding, broken spoke, nor truing issue since I went to Nube inserts (1.5" closed cell foam).

>>>
Interesting experience.

Questions:
Do you think the foam inserts have indeed saved your rims since you've had them? As in "Man, that was a wicked hit!"
Do you think your light weight build without inserts is tolerant of rider error, as in pounding into a rock, or landing at a weird angle?

It has been awhile but my old 1650g wheelset lasted a couple seasons and they needed a bit of attention, esp. as they neared their end. Been on the same 1750g set now for a looonnnng time and they have tolerated some bad riding on my part, with very little tweaking. 190#, but ride like 175# unless I make a mistake. Then I'm like 275#. :lol:

Thanks,
-F
 

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So one thing to collectively realize is that with the strength of carbon rims, especially wider, deeper rims, they hold their own shape without spokes. That's not necessarily the case with aluminum rims.

How to tell: generally carbon rims don't need much truing, if any. Aluminum rims always are needing truing.

You're starting with the flawed assumption that all alu rims are created equally, and all carbon rims are created equally.

And that just ain't so: A Crest is not an MTX33.

Are there benefits to carbon? Undeniably. And big ones. Pretty much all I build for myself anymore is carbon.

But carbon ain't for everybody, and you have to be very specific about what you need and want a rim to do in order to get the right rim for you.
 

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I'm interested to hear how a 24h Berd build works as a front wheel on a mountain bike.
We'll see soon enough, I'll post pics!

BTW my 20h front 24h rear / 45mm deep road tubless wheelset is still performing like a champ.

roadbike.png

About inserts, here's one that looks like it saved my bacon more than a couple of times. For guys well above 200# I'd recommend 2" inserts and 2.4" tires.

deadinsert.png


Re: "ur logic is flawed" comments, going to pass on that, been there, done that, life is too short....
 

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Still curious about my question above. Take a "typical" 420g chinese open mold 30id carbon rim and compare a 32h build vs. a 24h build.

What spoke would a 24h build need to use to be comparably stiff as a 32h build with Sapim Laser or DT Rev?
 
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