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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I thought I start an update thread. Yesterday, I did several things to my 1993 Stumpjumper hardtail. First I changed my freehub body from the original 7spd to the wider 8/9/10spd freehub body so I could use a 9spd cassette I have. I also used the axle and right side cones/dust cap/spacers/locknut from the donor hub because the dust cap is a different size. Cleaned and repacked the hub while I was there. I was surprised to only have to add a 1mm spacer to the left side because the freehub is 5mm wider. (edit: Later removed that 1mm spacer... it was right on.) Then I did a quick wheel re-dish on the bike (though I have a truing stand/dish tool) between the brake pads. Then I put on an XT CS-M770 11-34 9 spd cassette. Lower gears than 26x30, even on a 26" tire, are much needed after riding 1x11 32x46 low gear on my newer (now stolen) bike.

I got the 740mm Salsa Bend bar in the mail yesterday, so I put that on too. The 17deg backsweep is exactly what I've been thinking I've needed for years, as that's the angle my hands want to sit relaxed. The width is a nice improvement on the 700s I've been running the past year (and 720s on the newer bike). I slapped on a 9spd XTR right shifter, but it's sitting at an awkward angle because I'm still using the integrated brake/shift lever with the 7spd shifter removed and the shifter mount blocks the way. I'm going to have to order a right brake lever (short pull/canti). (I have a parts bin lever from the local bike co-op but it's crappier than the one already on the bike, and a rule I have is that it has to be as nice or nicer.)

Then I slapped on a 9spd Connex chain. Both chain and cassette were take off from my newer (now stolen) bike when I had put the 1x11 M8000 parts on. I had to block off the large chainring using the high limit screw because the chain wasn't long enough. Besides not being long enough, the Connex chain shifts like 💩, including on the front chainrings, even with the chain length correct for improvised double, and b-screw adjustment/cable tension done properly. Hanger is straight. Chain seems too flexible. I just ordered a KMC.

Next: new chain, new right brake lever, re-check for friction in rear derailleur cable/housing, which are newish, but suspect at the moment, fork lowers service on the co-op parts bin Judy XC SL I put on a couple years ago when I couldn't rebuild the original forks, rebuild the XT parallel push front V-brake, new brake pad inserts for that brake too.
Future: thinner grips than the ESI Extra Chunky on the bars, 24T chainring to swap for the 26T on the original crank, or get a new 170mm (which I prefer over the original 175s on the bike) crank to run 2x9 (36x22 would be ideal). Or maybe stick with a triple if I can find a decent used 22/32/42 crankset and bottom bracket. Eyeing Manitou Markhor fork, which is 456mm axle to crown for 80mm travel (compared to 63mm 80mm travel on the Judy XC at 460mm a-c), much better performance, and can put the ABS+ damper in that. Would also need front disc brakes and wheel. Current front rim is deeply worn in the brake tracks anyway, rim could crack from that at any time.
 

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My classic Fat, I looked at it and admired the real Syncros and Salsa (not the overseas stuff) bits, Suntour XC Pro bits, Hugi and Mavic 230 bits, and the frame of course. Then hopped on my current Fat cross and went for a ride. I guess it could be retro since it has an Igleheart fork, just like the classic.
 

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Rode for 30 miles & grabbed a beer afterwards. Thought about swapping out the front XTR 960 derailleur for an M900. The M960 hits the frame before I get into the granny gear. Also thought about putting some oil on the crosses in the spokes, they make a racket. No hurry though, still rides amazingly well.
1940664
 

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'92 M700, '94 Delta V 600, '94 Super V 2000, '01 Jekyll 2000, '04 Jekyll 1000 ,
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I just fill the tires, ride and smile. Especially, when friends find out just how old the bike is, they are amazed that it's in such nice shape and their bikes are only a few years old and look like doo doo:poop:. I guess I practice what I was taught, take care of things and they will last, especially nice things you work hard for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Nice Bianchi. Love the Celeste. And nice retro-mod Slingshot...

I got my first flat tire in many years. I haven't carried a repair kit really since the '90s when I was riding more on the road. I'm also a runner, and I figure I could jog back pushing a bike 15+ miles if I had to, which is a lot farther than I typically get from home or car. Walk back was only a mile this time.

Heard a big whoosh of air going through a grassy overgrown shortcut. Turned out something must have snagged the valve, since it was partially torn at the base. My only tube at home turned out to be for my (stolen) 29er before I went tubeless on that, but I stuffed the tube in for now, and ordered a couple 26" lightweight Continental tubes on ebay. Thought about converting to tubeless, but decided I didn't want to mess with testing if the tire would burp on the old-school rim.

I just fill the tires, ride and smile. Especially, when friends find out just how old the bike is, they are amazed that it's in such nice shape and their bikes are only a few years old and look like doo doo:poop:. I guess I practice what I was taught, take care of things and they will last, especially nice things you work hard for.
I heard someone notice my "old Stumpjumper" to his riding partner as I rode through a trailhead today. Mine's been in good riding shape since new in '93, but I'm going to be doing some more upgrades on it this year, since I decided I'm not going to replace my stolen bike this year. I'm glad the burglars didn't have room in their vehicle for both bikes and took the newer one with the carbon parts. I'm more attached to this old one and got fair payment from insurance for the stolen bike. For the riding that I do, it's really not far off my stolen, much more modern 29er hardtail. I've cured it of it's '90s roadie like fit/scary on downhills ill ride with a much longer (+50-55mm) parts bin Judy SL Hyracoil fork in 2017. (Fork was ~$5 at the bike co-op, where things are so cheap that it made sense to have to do threaded to threadless headset & stem, cantilever to V-brake to long-pull lever, etc. Paying ebay prices wouldn't have been worth it due to the high potential that the longer fork would have had a bad result.) It's more fun than it's ever been to ride - enough so that it's worth spending money on some upgrades. I definitely wouldn't get that money back if I tried to sell it, but I'm never going to sell it.

Most annoying thing at the moment is the slapping chain, so I might swap out the 9-speed stuff that I just put on for something with a clutch derailleur (M5100 11 speed drivetrain is tempting, though 11-51 cassette is a brick). Also the Judy fork sucks, especially compared to the SID Brain fork on the stolen bike (which was actually dialed in well while I had it, despite its reputation here), so it will be replaced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
New right brake lever today. The shifter mount for the old integrated lever was getting in the way setting the angle and separation of the 9 speed shifter when I did the 9 speed upgrade last week. It had to be pointed straight down.

1940993


Dia-Compe MX2 lever fixes that, and another annoyance. It's a 2 finger, 20mm shorter than the old 3 finger, so I no longer crush my outer fingers when rear braking (front lever is a 2.5 finger Shimano XT SLR Plus).

1940994
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Just picked up an old Marzocchi Z2 Bomber yesterday. Today, I cleaned it up, polished the crown, wire brushed the rust off the crown bolts, removed the stanchion bellows, and filed smooth the bad hack job (cut was angled 2mm) at the top of the steerer.

I should just slap it on the bike, but I'm going to order another Cane Creek crown race so I can switch between forks for a while. The 432.5mm axle to crown is closer to the original spec (~405mm-410mm) for the bike, but the 460.5mm Judy does some things right for the geometry: raises the bottom bracket and slackens the head tube to 68deg. It is a pogo stick though. I also need to order 7.5wt fork oil and a seal kit.

It's missing the left preload knob, and, not sure what is going on with the damper, but its also missing the rebound knob/screw.

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Not today, but I also recently took off the 46T chainring and put on a Shimano XT FD-786 (2x10) front derailleur. I also picked a Shimano Deore DX FC-MT60 170mm crank (a few years older than the bike!) a couple weeks ago that is awaiting a 122.5mm bottom bracket order. It's heavier than the Deore LX crank that is on the bike (but will be about the same after switching back to an aluminum big ring), but I really hate 175s. I was thinking while I had the 1x11 setup on my newer (stolen) bike that I really prefer 2x, and my current 2x9 setup (24/36 x 11-34) is really ideal for me. I'm going to also try 24/38. New (good) Jagwire housing and cheap cables didn't sort previously mentioned shifting issues because the wire windings in the cable are very noticeable. I sorted that by rubbing 100% fluorocarbon ski wax (which is being phased out in ski racing) into the cable. I guess that's why the good cables are run through a die and poly coated.

Staying with 9 speed means no clutch derailleur, so I made a chain slap protector/quietener using an old tube and double sided tape in two pieces (top and bottom of chainstay). It works well.

Also put Kool Stop salmon pads on the rear cantilevers, so now I have them front and back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
I just put on the Z2 Bomber and went for a late, (not quite midnight sun, but still light) short doggy ride out the back trail. Wow, it's as good as people say, especially compared to the Judy. (It was bad in all ways and getting worse with some new clicking sounds the past couple days).

I removed the crown race from the Judy using stacks of utility knife blades, and pressed it onto the Bomber with PVC. The Cane Creek headset is still smooth as butter, and now the fork is too, even without a service yet.

I did some calculations for the 28mm shorter axle to crown and got the setup right on the first try. Seat went back 10mm and tilted up a bit in front, seatpost went up 3mm, 105mm stem came off and 90mm stem went on, spacers from 25mm to 45mm (no way out of a tall stack with a '90s bike and short-ish fork). The steerer, after I had filed down the rough cut to 205mm the other day, happened to be the exact right length down to the millimeter with a 5mm spacer on top of the stem, so it was meant to be on my bike. I know not everyone agrees with the RAD fit thing, but I had gotten to the exact RAD fit on this bike with the Judy by tweaking things/trying a bunch of stems, etc. until things felt perfect before I ever heard of the concept. The fit with the Bomber retains the same RAD dimension down to the millimeter.

I turned the preload dials in 10 full turns to get about 11mm sag, which seemed just right for the 65-70mm travel. The broken damper, which is missing the adjustment screw (fixed to a fixed setting?) has seemingly just-right damping too, so if I can't get that fixed properly, I lucked out anyway. Looking at the dial clearance with the downtube, I bet that damper adjustment screw was broken in a crash that turned the fork into the frame.

I'm not a weight weenie, I'm way too practical for that. But I am very weight conscious, weigh everything that goes on or comes off the bike, and do the weight vs. performance/practicality/durability/cost analysis in my head with every part. The Z2 Bomber is 1960g (205mm steerer, with star nut), which is well worth the 177g gain over the Judy SL in performance.
 

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I let them collect dust while writing ad copy for selling one.

This retro thing is partly understood for appreciating the stuff in the day, evolution of products etc.... but riding even the best of old MTB that were best of breed against my modern bikes is a reminder of how wrong the industry got it. For actual use I mostly ride our modern bikes.




 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
but riding even the best of old MTB that were best of breed against my modern bikes is a reminder of how wrong the industry got it.
Well, I agree with that considering how they were set up back then. But the frames are redeemable to be basically similar in ride to recent hardtail cross country bikes with parts changes, main things being a longer fork and wider bars.

I have had the '93 Stumpjumper hardtail since new, and until 2017, it was set up with the original 13cm stem and 56cm Brahma bars that I put on. With the quill stem at max safe height (a bit over actually), the saddle to bar drop was still something like 8cm, more than my 1990 era road bike. It was halfway to endoing just riding along, like that that classic German video of the '90s mountain bikers crashing over and over on a downhill. But that endo JRA feeling disappeared when I put on a longer fork in 2017, getting the bars up to near saddle level, and shortened the stem to less than 11cm (tried range from 7cm to 11cm). I was too stretched out, torso angle almost flat like on a road bike, so the changes basically changed it to a much more balanced position.

My over forked '93 Stumpjumper, is almost identical in geometry to a 2019 Epic Hardtail, but one size smaller, with the exception of the seat tube angle. With a straight post and the seat forward on the rails, I can get the seat exactly where I want it without being out of the adjustment range, so the slack seat tube angle has is no effect on position. My bike that was stolen, a 2015 Stumpjumper Elite M5 hardtail (basically, the highest end Epic hardtail aluminum frame with a different name that came with fancy bits like carbon Roval wheels) didn't handle any better than my 1993 Stumpjumper the way it is set up now, other than being able to roll over roots better. My rim brakes even work great, better in some ways than the M8000 discs on the stolen bike.

18" 1993 Stumpjumper with 65mm Z2 BomberSmall 2019 Epic Hardtail
head angle69.469.8
seat tube angle71.974
chainstays430430
effective top tube575568
bottom bracket height295309
wheelbase10641074
reach402395
stack549599

Of course, I'd fit better on a size medium recent bike instead of a size small, where I'd be able to go shorter than 90mm in the stem and longer in the reach, but I'm far from endoing JRA. Dropping a vertical line from my grips, the horizontal distance to the front tire contact patch is very similar to the same measure on all the cross country pro bike features I'm seeing. I can't hit the most gnarly downhill runs near my house on this bike (Dig Deep, Eh-Line in Anchorage), but I couldn't on my 29er hardtail either. For the milder trails that I enjoy most, this bike is just as good. I'm a one bike guy (at least currently), this has to do everything including paved path duty. It's a great do everything bike, certainly better than a gravel bike (that people joke are '90s mountain bikes) for my situation.
 

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Well, I agree with that considering how they were set up back then. But the frames are redeemable to be basically similar in ride to recent hardtail cross country bikes with parts changes, main things being a longer fork and wider bars.

I have had the '93 Stumpjumper hardtail since new, and until 2017, it was set up with the original 13cm stem and 56cm Brahma bars that I put on. With the quill stem at max safe height (and a bit over actually), the saddle to bar drop was still something like 8cm, more than my 1990 era road bike. It was halfway to endoing just riding along, like that that classic German video of the '90s mountain bike crashing over and over on a downhill. But that endo JRA feeling disappeared when I put on a longer fork in 2017, getting the bars up to near saddle level, and shortened the stem to less than 11cm (tried range from 7cm to 11cm). I was too stretched out, torso angle almost flat like on a road bike, so the changes basically changed it to a much more balanced position.

My over forked '93 Stumpjumper, is almost identical in geometry to a 2019 Epic Hardtail, but one size smaller, with the exception of the seat tube angle. With a straight post and the seat forward on the rails, I can get the seat exactly where I want it without being out of the adjustment range, so the slack seat tube angle has is no effect on position. My bike that was stolen, a 2015 Stumpjumper Elite M5 hardtail (basically, the highest end Epic hardtail aluminum frame with a different name that came with fancy bits like carbon Roval wheels) didn't handle any better than my 1993 Stumpjumper the way it is set up now, other than being able to roll over roots better. My rim brakes even work great, better in some ways than the M8000 discs on the stolen bike.

18" 1993 Stumpjumper with 65mm Z2 BomberSmall 2019 Epic Hardtail
head angle69.469.8
seat tube angle71.974
chainstays430430
effective top tube575568
bottom bracket height295309
wheelbase10641074
reach402395
stack549599

Of course, I'd fit better on a size medium recent bike instead of a size small, where I'd be able to go shorter than 90mm in the stem and longer in the reach, but I'm far from endoing JRA. Dropping a vertical line from my grips, the horizontal distance to the front tire contact patch is very similar to the same measure on all the cross country pro bike features I'm seeing. I can't hit the knarly downhill runs near my house on this bike (Dig Deep, Eh-Line in Anchorage), but I couldn't on my 29er hardtail either. For the milder trails that I enjoy most, this bike is just as good. I'm a one bike guy (at least currently), this has to everything including paved path duty. It's a great do everything bike, certainly better than a gravel bike (that people joke are '90s mountain bikes) for my situation.
I'm seeing similar results on my fsr restomod. Already have the at rest hta to 68, and after the angle headset it should stay around there when I increase the rear travel another 30mm or so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
The original LX BR-M560 cantis in the rear perform perfectly (one of the few remaining original parts on the '93 Stumpjumper), especially with the Kool Stop salmon pads, but the BR-M739 V-brakes that I put on 4 years ago were in bad need of a rebuild.

The rebuild kits are hard to find and overpriced for what I could just get a different brake for, so I had improvised some shimming on much slacker cable link arm side a few weeks ago and had improved it substantially. But it still had a lot of play remaining. I went and got a third, more scratched up arm (cable link side) from the parts bin of the local bike co-op that was still there 4 years later because it was missing the cable clamp side arm. Turns out I've been running mismatched arms. The much slacker arm with the TK date code (November 1995) has a thin, split brass main pivot bushing that I could push out easily by hand while the UC (March 1996) arm has a much bigger, main pivot bushing that is pressed in solidly. The cable clamp side arm that I've been using (less play than the other side) was probably originally matched up with this scratched up UC arm.

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I wanted to keep using the less scratched up TK arm so I shimmed behind the split brass main pivot bushing with aluminum foil. I had used one layer of foil a few weeks ago, and that was a nice improvement. This time I went two rotations of foil to start, and then trimmed the foil back bit by bit until the pivot axle would just fit in, about 1.5 turns of foil. Now the pivot is super tight (and free turning, cleaned and lubed up the pivot axle).

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I had used two layers of aluminum foil donuts behind the bushing on the brake pad holder assembly a few weeks ago, and it helped. Now I took the tighter brake pad assembly from the new arm I picked up and used 4 layers of aluminum foil donut shims and now it's also super tight. Also did the same 4 layers for the other arm. I used the brass bushing from the slacker brake pad assembly to tap out (with a hammer) the much tighter steel bushing.

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The brakes are now tighter than new. Very nice. I've been doing 1-finger braking front and rear since the Koolstop salmon pads went on, so I'm going go to spend a couple minutes moving my brake levers inboard a bit to give my fingers more clearance for 1-finger braking.
 

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