[Nat]

I recently had a dude ask “What’s the lowest price you’d take it for?”

I think the only answer is $100 more than before, for you.

Too funny. Freaking used gear market...

One of my old friends once found a note tucked under the windshield wiper of his car (a total jalopy). "Any chance you want to sell your car? I'd be willing to offer $400 or less."

Let's see, "I'll take less please!"

 

[bikeranzin]

Too funny. Freaking used gear market...

One of my old friends once found a note tucked under the windshield wiper of his car (a total jalopy). "Any chance you want to sell your car? I'd be willing to offer $400 or less."

Let's see, "I'll take less please!"

Unfortunately, not limited to used stuff. I’m sure you’ve seen “Save up to 50% or more!” while shopping at a store.

 

[Nat]

Unfortunately, not limited to used stuff. I’m sure you’ve seen “Save up to 50% or more!” while shopping at a store.

Face. Palm.

 

[phantoj]

I have heard that 15 minutes can save you an indefinite amount on your car insurance....

 

[Harold]

I recently had a dude ask “What’s the lowest price you’d take it for?”

I think the only answer is $100 more than before, for you.

I use that ALL.THE.TIME. when potential buyers are being idiots. wanna be reasonable? I'll negotiate. wanna lowball and try to pay as little as absolutely possible, even if it's unreasonable...then I'm going to start asking for an unreasonable amount more than the item is worth.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

I’m as dumbfounded by your inability to grasp the basic concepts of supply & demand and free enterprise as you apparently are at my / our inability to share your belief in / wish for a controlled market.

I don’t believe the realities of this subject can be explained more simply than has already been done within this thread.

I appreciate you hanging in there and actually reading everything.

I understand supply and demand, but as Harold mentioned, I'm in the position where I don't have to buy a bike. If a seller has a bike he'd like to sell, I'd like to buy it. He won't let it go unless the figure is right, I won't fork over my money unless the figure is right. It's a negotiation. Sure, some may be able to win as a seller as you mentioned in your subsequent post, but I work too hard for my money to overpay, high demand or not.

I'm not looking for a controlled market, I just know that used things depreciate. I'm sorry if I come off as an idiot for that, but I'm not paying what are retail prices for something new when it's a decade old and has the wear of its age.

It's funny how easilly you can say it can't be explained any more simply, but there are people in the thread who seem to mirror my way of thinking on the subject, so I can't be too weird.

I am getting the sense that the OP does not like used bikes. Just a hunch.

Actually, I prefer used because somebody else has taken the depreciation hit for me. The last new bike I bought was in '99, and it was a year old model with a hefty discount. As I said before, I work too hard to spend too much on anything. If something is used and retains some quality for the price, I do that as much as I can. That way if I sell a thing, I can get nearly what I paid for it.

These buyers would like the price to be less. I'm not sure why this price delta signal appears to convert buyers into regulators, but it does. Probably hubris.

Nah, I just think a used thing will bottom out in value at some point and can't be sold for what it cost new ten or twenty years ago. Trust me, I'm not the type of d-bag to camp in the hammer lane on the interstate and keep people from going any faster than me because "I'm going as fast as anyone should on this road".

I expect the buyer to counteroffer a lower price. Why would I lowball myself right off the bat??? When I ask them, "How much would you like offer?" I get no reply back. They just felt like sharing their esteemed opinion.

Thanks for realizing a used bike will naturally be haggled over. It's so frustrating when a seller wants to sell for a certain price, which is their listed price, but they don't mention their price is firm, or even more frustrating, they list with reasonable offers or best offer formats and then don't budge when you offer them a solid offer on their asking price.

A typical, successful negotiation on price goes like this: Both first numbers won't be accepted. The seller's asking price is too high and the buyer's offer is too low. The seller comes down and the buyer comes up, but neither of those get agreed upon either. Usually it's between this point where a deal is made. It doesn't necessarily have to be a perfect midpoint between the first initial numbers, but that type of haggling back and forth is the key to a successful sale for both a seller and a buyer. If you won't budge off your price, what's the point in trying to sell, unless you have it reasonably priced, and then you'll probably sell it in a day or two for your asking price because nobody wants to miss out on the deal.

It's about damn time bikes started holding their resale value.

...and

Bikes never appreciate like real estate can.

That's the thing. Bikes aren't investments. Like cars... they're all headed for a rock bottom price because they age and get used. Anybody being smart with their money has to realize this. A bike or house priced too high will just sit. Buyers want to give people their money. In my own case recently I wanted to give a guy over three grand for a bike, but he was holding out for more. I don't know if the guy sold it. If he got what he was asking, I'm happy for him, but I'm not paying too much for anything.

I recently had a dude ask “What’s the lowest price you’d take it for?”

I think the only answer is $100 more than before, for you.

If you made it clear your asking price was firm, then that's fine, but most people expect some wiggle room in an asking price otherwise. When I list an item for sale, I have a minimum number in my head that I will accept. Of course I'd like to get more, but if it isn't moving, I'll lower the price. If I haven't sold it in a week or so, I'll respond to those "how little will you take" guys because I actually want to sell the things I list.

Do you rent or own?

We own. We rented as cheaply as possible for years, then bought in the middle of the housing crisis in 2009. I try to do the best I can with any purchase where a savings or negotiation can be had. I see any purchase like investment real estate, where the money is made at the buy. Of course, I'm not buying bikes to resell at a profit, but every dollar I don't spend buying a bike is a dollar I effectively made for myself.

We're sitting pretty on the house. We could pay it off this year if we wanted to.

 

[Harold]

I just know that used things depreciate.

This is a fallacy. They don't always depreciate. Some things are more desirable than others. That desirability can increase or decrease over time which can really play hell with resale value. Hell, look at the antique market. Certain styles and eras have fads where resale value skyrockets. When the fad wanes, resale value plummets.

Bikes aren't investments.

Nobody here is claiming that they are investments. But like I just said, desirability waxes and wanes over time. We're going through an effed up period of time where supply of new bikes is limited because of all kinds of global supply and labor issues. Supply of used bikes is also limited, but no moreso than most other times, because people who want to ride their bikes don't want to sell them. Demand has increased, at least for bikes at certain price points. This makes the new bikes at those price points pretty tough to get right now. I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen larger price increases at the retail level to suppress this otherwise unfulfillable demand at least at some level. The only thing a lot of people see at certain price points as being available are used bikes. Some pretty old. Some bikes have been sitting around mostly unused, but the active resale market has convinced folks to list them because they could get more for them, maybe.

There ARE people who want a bike badly enough that they'll pay more than what that same bike was selling for a year ago to get just about anything right now, even if it's old. Not everybody is, clearly. But enough are that it's pushing used bike prices up. It's harder to find the people who want to sell their bikes at the older prices, since those lower prices get snapped up faster. Same thing is happening with lots of stuff. Used cars. Canoes & kayaks. Home prices in my area have jumped substantially this year because demand has increased. Retail prices WILL increase. They're just going to be a bit slower to do so.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

They don't always depreciate.

Obviously, there are some examples of things that have climbed in value over time, but we both understand these are the smallest percentage of examples on the bell curve, and generally speaking, in the broadest sense, the overwhelming majority of depreciable items like cars and bicycles, actually do depreciate.

I'm not trying to go after bicycles that are so rare or sought-after that they have increased in value over time. I'm looking for a decent buy on an older, used bicycle in good shape. That particular bicycle will not have appreciated over time.

 

[Harold]

Obviously, there are some examples of things that have climbed in value over time, but we both understand these are the smallest percentage of examples on the bell curve, and generally speaking, in the broadest sense, the overwhelming majority of depreciable items like cars and bicycles, actually do depreciate.

I'm not trying to go after bicycles that are so rare or sought-after that they have increased in value over time. I'm looking for a decent buy on an older, used bicycle in good shape. That particular bicycle will not have appreciated over time.

But because of market forces occurring RIGHT NOW, that particular bicycle HAS appreciated since January of 2020. That's the problem. You're ignoring market forces that are affecting supply, demand, and pricing RIGHT NOW.

Yeah, those factors won't last forever. But nobody really knows how long they WILL last.

 

[milehi]

I appreciate you hanging in there and actually reading everything.

I understand supply and demand, but as Harold mentioned, I'm in the position where I don't have to buy a bike. If a seller has a bike he'd like to sell, I'd like to buy it. He won't let it go unless the figure is right, I won't fork over my money unless the figure is right. It's a negotiation. Sure, some may be able to win as a seller as you mentioned in your subsequent post, but I work too hard for my money to overpay, high demand or not.

I'm not looking for a controlled market, I just know that used things depreciate. I'm sorry if I come off as an idiot for that, but I'm not paying what are retail prices for something new when it's a decade old and has the wear of its age.

It's funny how easilly you can say it can't be explained any more simply, but there are people in the thread who seem to mirror my way of thinking on the subject, so I can't be too weird.



Actually, I prefer used because somebody else has taken the depreciation hit for me. The last new bike I bought was in '99, and it was a year old model with a hefty discount. As I said before, I work too hard to spend too much on anything. If something is used and retains some quality for the price, I do that as much as I can. That way if I sell a thing, I can get nearly what I paid for it.



Nah, I just think a used thing will bottom out in value at some point and can't be sold for what it cost new ten or twenty years ago. Trust me, I'm not the type of d-bag to camp in the hammer lane on the interstate and keep people from going any faster than me because "I'm going as fast as anyone should on this road".



Thanks for realizing a used bike will naturally be haggled over. It's so frustrating when a seller wants to sell for a certain price, which is their listed price, but they don't mention their price is firm, or even more frustrating, they list with reasonable offers or best offer formats and then don't budge when you offer them a solid offer on their asking price.

A typical, successful negotiation on price goes like this: Both first numbers won't be accepted. The seller's asking price is too high and the buyer's offer is too low. The seller comes down and the buyer comes up, but neither of those get agreed upon either. Usually it's between this point where a deal is made. It doesn't necessarily have to be a perfect midpoint between the first initial numbers, but that type of haggling back and forth is the key to a successful sale for both a seller and a buyer. If you won't budge off your price, what's the point in trying to sell, unless you have it reasonably priced, and then you'll probably sell it in a day or two for your asking price because nobody wants to miss out on the deal.



...and



That's the thing. Bikes aren't investments. Like cars... they're all headed for a rock bottom price because they age and get used. Anybody being smart with their money has to realize this. A bike or house priced too high will just sit. Buyers want to give people their money. In my own case recently I wanted to give a guy over three grand for a bike, but he was holding out for more. I don't know if the guy sold it. If he got what he was asking, I'm happy for him, but I'm not paying too much for anything.



If you made it clear your asking price was firm, then that's fine, but most people expect some wiggle room in an asking price otherwise. When I list an item for sale, I have a minimum number in my head that I will accept. Of course I'd like to get more, but if it isn't moving, I'll lower the price. If I haven't sold it in a week or so, I'll respond to those "how little will you take" guys because I actually want to sell the things I list.



We own. We rented as cheaply as possible for years, then bought in the middle of the housing crisis in 2009. I try to do the best I can with any purchase where a savings or negotiation can be had. I see any purchase like investment real estate, where the money is made at the buy. Of course, I'm not buying bikes to resell at a profit, but every dollar I don't spend buying a bike is a dollar I effectively made for myself.

We're sitting pretty on the house. We could pay it off this year if we wanted to.

You should watch the Barrett Auto Auction as an example of how used things lose value.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

Harold, you bring up some good points, and I'm not saying they're invalid. I don't have enough time to respond with the attention I need to devote to your post right now. I'll get back to you when I have the time.

Milehi, I've watched the Barrett Auto Show before, and I don't recall seeing many, or any actually, pristine or even decent condition Toyota Corollas, Ford Rangers, Dodge Caravans, Mazda 626s, or Honda Civics rolling across the auction block.

 

[mik_git]

Thing is, what you think should be happening and what is actually happening. They are two very different things.

 

[chazpat]

I'm not sure who brought it up but houses maybe aren't a great analogy because market forces are different than bikes. You could buy a run-down house in a great area, fix it up or maybe even demolish and build a new one on it, and have the final result be worth way more over time. Bikes never appreciate like real estate can. You might buy less house for the money in order to be closer to your job so you don't have to sit in traffic 3 hours per day. You might buy less house for the money because it's next to a ton of biking, skiing, lakes, etc. rather than in the middle of nowhere where there's nothing to do other than get drunk and roll coal (i.e., better quality of life).

Renting is money out the window.

Do you rent or own?

Agreed. While a house can deteriorate and generally goes down in value, the land it sits on almost always increases in value at a greater rate, though the area it's located in may deteriorate or rejuvenate, also affecting the value. No one cares about the land a bicycle is sitting on (unless you happen to be riding it at the moment) as that will be changed and is not part of the transaction.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

That's the problem. You're ignoring market forces that are affecting supply, demand, and pricing RIGHT NOW.

We can all agree there are market supply issues going on, but we don't all have to accept the cost for what would otherwise be more affordable options being automatically more expensive. I understand this is where you guys think I'm a moron, but none of us have to accept inflated prices. If people just didn't pay these inflated prices, the problem wouldn't be an issue. I do understand that it is an issue because a lot of people are paying more than what a bicycle should bring... I just don't feel we all must bow to the implication attached to the situation.

Perhaps I might be guilty of phrasing my original question poorly... I'm not really interested in what increased demand is doing to the value of a bicycle right now. I'm curious about what should be considered typical depreciation on a much older, much more used bicycle compared to more modern, less worn out options, at any given time, pandemic shortage or not. I feel people usually ask too much for older bikes that shouldn't be anywhere near their asking price.

You can buy a laptop computer from the late 90s for less than $100 nowadays. It was perfectly serviceable at the time, and probably cost two or three grand at the time, which was way more than the same amount of money is worth today, but if the supply of modern computers dried up immediately, I still don't think people would pay three grand for a 25 year old laptop. They're just not worth that.

a house can deteriorate and generally goes down in value

A house can go down in value if it has deteriorated, but generally speaking, on the whole, a house is a quality investment because the majority of them (excluding prefab homes, trailer homes, or other random things like tiny homes) appreciate, assuming they've stayed in good repair, might have had upgrades, and are located in what are considered desirable neighborhoods. It's not really a discussion about real estate; someone just used an example of houses in the discussion.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

Maybe laptops aren't the best example. People need computers to do business and commerce these days and assuming a 25 year old laptop was able to get on today's internet and meet the demands of today's software requirements, perhaps supply and demand might drive prices up.

Let's look at old car stereo head units with 8 track or cassette decks that can't take audio inputs from a phone or an mp3 player, bluetooth connections for telephone conversations or play satelite radio. If supply from overseas dried up all of the modern car stereos next week, would people start paying exorbitant prices for an old AM/FM 8 track player?

If people stopped making flat screen LCD TVs, does a 1960s model with 20 channel capability automatically rise to a thousand dollar price point?

 

[phantoj]

Do a search for "vintage alpine" on ebay, filter for sold items only; people will pay hundreds for the right 90's tape deck.

 

[kapusta]

We can all agree there are market supply issues going on, but we don't all have to accept the cost for what would otherwise be more affordable options being automatically more expensive. I understand this is where you guys think I'm a moron, but none of us have to accept inflated prices. If people just didn't pay these inflated prices, the problem wouldn't be an issue. I do understand that it is an issue because a lot of people are paying more than what a bicycle should bring... I just don't feel we all must bow to the implication attached to the situation.

These prices are exactly what they "should" be. The problem for you is that other people are willing to pay more than you. Your solution is that everyone should pay less, even if they are willing to pay more. This does not work in a free market.

Example: Bike X is listed as costing $1000. Some people are willing to pay that, you are not, so they get it for $1000 and similar bikes will be priced at that as long as they keep selling for that.

Your solution is that nobody pay more than $500. OK, so a used bike goes for sale on ebay for $500. You say GREAT, I'll take it. Unfortunately for you, someone else who was willing to pay a thousand will offer $600. What shouldn't they, they are still getting it for far less than they are willing to pay. Then someone else just like them offers $700... and so on. This is how the free market works, especially in the used market.

Basically you are asking people who would love to buy a bike for $501 to not do so, so that you can have it for $500. Do you still not see the issue with this?

 

[Nat]

We can all agree there are market supply issues going on, but we don't all have to accept the cost for what would otherwise be more affordable options being automatically more expensive. I understand this is where you guys think I'm a moron, but none of us have to accept inflated prices. If people just didn't pay these inflated prices, the problem wouldn't be an issue. I do understand that it is an issue because a lot of people are paying more than what a bicycle should bring... I just don't feel we all must bow to the implication attached to the situation.

That's pretty idealistic because it ignores the "demand" portion of supply/demand. Apparently people want bikes enough to pay more than you think they should.

I feel people usually ask too much for older bikes that shouldn't be anywhere near their asking price.

We get that, but you're not in charge of the market. Feel free to object all you like but it will have no influence.

 

[Harold]

You throw out an example of something you think should follow a rule of always depreciating and I can find you an exception where something in that classification has increased in value.

Older small trucks have become increasingly desirable because everybody stopped making truly small trucks. 80s era Ford Rangers are actually quite desirable now. The older square body pickup trucks of all sizes are pretty desirable right now. Their values have changed, and quite possibly increased. And yeah, old car head units with a functional 8 track might fetch a high price on the collector's market for people who are doing restorations.

Some old computers and other various electronic devices have become collectors items. Not all of them, but some. Try finding an old Atari or original Nintendo sometime. Record players. Old radios. The list goes on.

You don't have to pay those prices for those things if you don't want to. That's how the market works. But other people ARE willing to pay that. So educated sellers will ask for more. To pay what you're willing to pay, you're going to have to work harder to find the sellers who don't know or don't care and want to make a quick sale.

You simply can't put an external driver on these things. Even the price books for antiques and various collectors' items aren't putting an external driver on prices on the resale market. Those things are only publishing sale prices from some past interval, like the past year or so and showing how those sale prices have changed. Educated and experienced appraisers keep these price books in mind, but also follow the market so they can make recommendations. But even they can't always fully account for blips that might occur at auction (watch antiques roadshow and they'll often give different values for insurance, retail, and auction). Get a few people who REALLY want that thing at auction and it'll sell for whatever it takes to eliminate all but the last possible buyer.

 

[Crankout]

A friend of mine sells all sorts of rare or otherwise interesting older vehicle parts online or in-person. When asked 'Can you do better?' regarding the price, he asks for a higher amount because it is indeed better for him.