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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read all the threads I can find on the Turner way of sizing stuff, particularly the Sultan. I have to say I am a bit stumped as to what size is the one. Being 6'2", 34" inseam and longish arms, I am typically an XL...whatever that means (usually a 21" ST height)...and I would not even consider a TT under 24" these days.

The H/T 29er I am riding now has a 24.25" TT which is the longest TT I have ever owned in a bike (over 20 years of mtn biking). It has a 100mm stem and a set back post, something like a 73* ST angle and I run 180mm cranks.

I like the 24.25" TT and I could easily see the 24.5" TT of the LG Sultan being just fine. But, the XL is much closer to the ST height I would prefer to avoid a ton of seatpost sticking out. But I cannot get past that 25.5" TT on the XL. Holy smokes.

I understand the 80mm stem deal to get the cockpit right, but that is a really long front center, especially with a rangy 18.25" CS length. I am afraid it will go around switchbacks like a logging truck.

What is the deal with Dave Turner and his looong TTs? Is that a personal pref? From years of riding I know that you need to take the whole bike into consideration and TT length is not the whole enchilada, but it is a big factor in where you end up between the wheels.

If I can get away with a 19" ST height....need to measure that a bit more....then I would run a LG with a 90/100mm stem and be right where I am now on the HT.

Any wise counseling? Oh, this is for SO Cal rides, long fireroad climbs, rocky singletrack, etc. XC level...no hucking, bike build on the XC side.

Like to keep the Sultan on the A list and they are hard to find to demo. Ordering the wrong size would be really tragic.
 

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not so super...
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Look at it like this:

Your current bike's TT = 24.25" Your seat post setback is 10mm(???) and 30mm in stem length (assuming you use a 70mm stem on the Sultan). That a 40mm difference or 1.57".

You would probably feel ok on the XL IMO.....but what do I know since I barely fit the medium??????
 

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mtroy said:
But, the XL is much closer to the ST height I would prefer to avoid a ton of seatpost sticking out.
Seems to me, it's not so much that the top tubes are long, it's that the seat tubes are short and this makes sizing awkward for those in between sizes. A large would give you the top tube length you want and plenty of standover.
 

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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
FM said:
Seems to me, it's not so much that the top tubes are long, it's that the seat tubes are short and this makes sizing awkward for those in between sizes. A large would give you the top tube length you want and plenty of standover.
Yeah. They are short comparitively.
 

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The deal is.....

..the shorter the travel the more likely the bike is to be used for XC in the traditional sense. Lower back angles for more effective power output on climbs or flat riding. The reason the Sultan TT is longer than a Flux for the same size is that the HA is steeper on the 29r and I did not want the front center to be too short, the #1 attribute of a 29r is stability, so to make the front center too short would subtract some of that from the whole package. As for the seat tubes they are fine with the plethora of seat posts on the market, in the old days when a 'medium' had an 18 ST riders complained they could not get their seats low enough on XCEs so the Spot got a 17" and all frames for the last few years have stayed low as seat post selection has increased there is no problem.

When you do SSinga math it does not look like a 'big' stretch, for SoCal riding the XL will fit great.


DT
 

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It's carbon dontcha know.
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I'm 6'2" and was between a L and an XL, I went XL.

If you're really not sure find out if someone is local or do a competitive cyclist demo.
 

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turnerbikes said:
the #1 attribute of a 29r is stability, so to make the front center too short would subtract some of that from the whole package.
Thanks for the explanation. I like the logic except for the above. Maybe you feel that 29"er riders are seeking an overly stable platform in general and don't want to ruin that mojo for them?

29" wheels don't necessarily need longer TT's to be stable. They are inherently stable, and long TT's just add to barge like handling with the longer chainstays. IMO.

To the OP. I have ridden lots of different length TT's on 29" bikes, and would advise you to go with the shortest one you can get away with if you prefer a nimble bike to a stable bike. I am an inch shorter than you and really enjoy my El Capitan with 23" ETT. I am pretty sure I would hate life on an XL Sultan although that would be the correct seat tube length for me.

If I were choosing between the frames, I would absolutely get the Large.

Don't size it by the seat tube.
 

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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks DT. Dave, I assume?

SO...the LG is not an issue for the seatpost length.

Despite that, the XL is what you advise? Interesting.

I just have a mental block with the 25.5 inches. It seems soooo long. Heck I used to ride a 23.5" TT on several custom frames (Curtlo) back in the day, but that was in the 150mm/135mm stem era.

I appreciate the stability factor. I bet it feels groovy on the rutted doubletracks we typically ride. I just wonder if that XL crosses the line a bit for someone my height. Do you not feel that the increased offset and longer travel fork lineup that is out there now has mitigated that issue somewhat and made the short stem/ long TT setup less important?

I suppose it can fall to personal preference as well. 24.5" is still longer than anything I have owned, HT angle/fork offset/crown height, etc. not withstanding I can't imagine it not being pretty decent at speed. But, I have to admit that the last 2 months of 29er riding has been very interesting and they are different beasts, no doubt. It is hard to ignore 20 years of riding as I watch the bikes get longer and bigger year after year.

When I get ready, I really need to try and ride one before I buy. That can be kinda hard to do, but there seems to be a lot of them in So Cal. Maybe I can steal a ride.


BTW, it is very cool to get input right from the manufacturer on a public forum. Kudos. I have always admired Turner bikes. Never faddish and always solid.

BTW part 2, I will not ask about why you use bushings! :p Man is that always good for 2 pages of argument for nearly no reason at all.

Thanks.

mt

turnerbikes said:
..the shorter the travel the more likely the bike is to be used for XC in the traditional sense. Lower back angles for more effective power output on climbs or flat riding. The reason the Sultan TT is longer than a Flux for the same size is that the HA is steeper on the 29r and I did not want the front center to be too short, the #1 attribute of a 29r is stability, so to make the front center too short would subtract some of that from the whole package. As for the seat tubes they are fine with the plethora of seat posts on the market, in the old days when a 'medium' had an 18 ST riders complained they could not get their seats low enough on XCEs so the Spot got a 17" and all frames for the last few years have stayed low as seat post selection has increased there is no problem.

When you do SSinga math it does not look like a 'big' stretch, for SoCal riding the XL will fit great.


DT
 

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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Enel said:
Thanks for the explanation. I like the logic except for the above. Maybe you feel that 29"er riders are seeking an overly stable platform in general and don't want to ruin that mojo for them?

29" wheels don't necessarily need longer TT's to be stable. They are inherently stable, and long TT's just add to barge like handling with the longer chainstays. IMO.

To the OP. I have ridden lots of different length TT's on 29" bikes, and would advise you to go with the shortest one you can get away with if you prefer a nimble bike to a stable bike. I am an inch shorter than you and really enjoy my El Capitan with 23" ETT. I am pretty sure I would hate life on an XL Sultan although that would be the correct seat tube length for me.

If I were choosing between the frames, I would absolutely get the Large.

Don't size it by the seat tube.

Ah, the other viewpoint. Nimble is good. I cannot imagine that I would not notice that huge wheelbase on an XL Sultan. If I could get an FS that is as nimble as my KM with cushy stuff at both ends and a bit more stability (and FS brings that to the table as well), I would be pretty happy.

24.5" is a long TT for my height. 25.5 is huge IMO, but then I learn new things every once and awhile.

BTW...off topic, like your blog.
 

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I don't do PC
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Same size here(exactly) and I went with an XL, I also demo'd the L and felt it was a bit cramped, but I would also feel cramped on your current setup. Guess it depends if you want a more racey feel(more forward position) or a more stable feel for the descents.

I've got a 120mm fork on the front and the HA still feels as steep as most XC bikes I have owned/ridden, a L with a fork like the Fox or Reba will feel like your on an XC race bike I would think.
 

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mtroy said:
Ah, the other viewpoint. Nimble is good. I cannot imagine that I would not notice that huge wheelbase on an XL Sultan. If I could get an FS that is as nimble as my KM with cushy stuff at both ends and a bit more stability (and FS brings that to the table as well), I would be pretty happy.
If you saw the blog, you saw what I did switching from the Curtlo to the Capitan. The difference is night and day. The Curtlo with 24.5 ETT was a barge, not a bad bike, but not particularly nimble. Same rear end on the 23" ETT El Cap is very much more livable.

The Lenz has 1" shorter chainstays, and a 24" ETT and feels just right in a lot of ways. Not to steer you away from Turners on the Turner board!!

It sort of depends on how you want to ride and as DT notes, 4" travel bikes are biased toward XC riders with a flat back all stretched out on non-technical terrain. That is not how I ride my 29" wheeled bike, so I prefer a shorter, more upright position and appreciate the ability to get the front wheel up at a moments notice.

If you rode 20 years ago, you know what I mean by nimble, I think 29" bikes do benefit from more "classic" geometry if you can get over the toe overlap.
 

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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Enel said:
If you saw the blog, you saw what I did switching from the Curtlo to the Capitan. The difference is night and day. The Curtlo with 24.5 ETT was a barge, not a bad bike, but not particularly nimble. Same rear end on the 23" ETT El Cap is very much more livable.

The Lenz has 1" shorter chainstays, and a 24" ETT and feels just right in a lot of ways. Not to steer you away from Turners on the Turner board!!

It sort of depends on how you want to ride and as DT notes, 4" travel bikes are biased toward XC riders with a flat back all stretched out on non-technical terrain. That is not how I ride my 29" wheeled bike, so I prefer a shorter, more upright position and appreciate the ability to get the front wheel up at a moments notice.

If you rode 20 years ago, you know what I mean by nimble, I think 29" bikes do benefit from more "classic" geometry if you can get over the toe overlap.
Well, I figured the Turner forum was the place to ask. I have been tossing around a lot of things...how much travel to buy, boutique VS. production, etc. Tough decision. The Sultan keeps popping up as a good solid frame at a good weight. I do not care for the over 18" CS. I think that is largely convenience for the builder, not performance for the rider, and the TT/Short stem thing has me wondering.

Still, I have to ask these kind of questions sometime. Might as well be now. For the record, I love the Lunchbox, but it would be like me pedaling a 6" travel AM bike all over the place with nothing to jump off of!
 

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mtroy said:
For the record, I love the Lunchbox, but it would be like me pedaling a 6" travel AM bike all over the place with nothing to jump off of!
You could build up a Behemoth light and have a nice long travel (if you consider 5 inches long???) XC bike.

Or, just get a Voodoo Canzo frame in the 24.5" ETT, they are around $800, really nice, and not too much of a risk if you don't like it. Geometry and linkage are Turner/Ventanaesque (faux Bar). A buddy out here went from a medium Karate Monkey to Medium Canzo and is in love with it.
 

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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Enel said:
You could build up a Behemoth light and have a nice long travel (if you consider 5 inches long???) XC bike.

Or, just get a Voodoo Canzo frame in the 24.5" ETT, they are around $800, really nice, and not too much of a risk if you don't like it. Geometry and linkage are Turner/Ventanaesque (faux Bar). A buddy out here went from a medium Karate Monkey to Medium Canzo and is in love with it.
Well, tell ya what, we are drifting waaayy off Turner centered topics, so how about we continue this PM or on the 29er forum?

mt
 

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....or, you could try demoing the Sultan before buying into too much bloated rhetoric from someone who hasn't even ridden one. No offense, but if you get too caught up in a geometry point here or there....you completely miss the point. Some saddle time will dismiss the silly ill founded misconceptions that seem to be swirling.
 

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Since when has the Turner forum ever stayed on topic. That's the beauty of the place....even the spam posts are informative.

Post up what you decide.
 

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I don't huck.
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
jncarpenter said:
....or, you could try demoing the Sultan before buying into too much bloated rhetoric from someone who hasn't even ridden one. No offense, but if you get too caught up in a geometry point here or there....you completely miss the point. Some saddle time will dismiss the silly ill founded misconceptions that seem to be swirling.
That is good advice, although I think Enel is not all that bloated. Perhaps he is retaining water.:D

In any case, I have spent quite a bit of time reading reports from folks who have ridden them so I have a pretty good idea what the bike is like, I just was looking to get any insight into the odd sizing.

In the end, it has to be what I like anyway, as you pointed out.

Thanks for all the responses.
 

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I'm almost 6'1" with a 36" inseam and I'm going with a large. I've never had a bike with a tt over 24.5". The 25.5" would be to long for me. I don't mind having a lot of seatpost showing.
 

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I agree you, and Enel, would be better on a L, but another inch taller and longer torso and arms(like mtroy and I) then the L would feel cramped IMO.

17.3 CS on the Lenz huh? How's the tire clearance?? The Ventana has a 17.9 CS, I have a hard time believing most folks could tell any diff with a .3" diff in length, but I'm not saying you don't.

mtroy- here's a side pic of my XL since we are indentical in size, the cockpit looks pretty good to me and like I said feels spot on
 
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