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Personally, I hope DT can keep production of the aluminum frames here, at SAPA, maybe by getting a few overseas bids to keep SAPA reasonable, and frame prices from climbing.

If/when it comes time to pursue carbon -- and I suspect that in 10 years this will no longer be an item of debate in bike circles -- it will be tougher to avoid overseas production.

But I bet he will give it the old college try!
 

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kosmo said:
Personally, I hope DT can keep production of the aluminum frames here, at SAPA, maybe by getting a few overseas bids to keep SAPA reasonable, and frame prices from climbing.

If/when it comes time to pursue carbon -- and I suspect that in 10 years this will no longer be an item of debate in bike circles -- it will be tougher to avoid overseas production.

But I bet he will give it the old college try!
I'm curious to see how it pans out. Already companies like canfield/spec/trek/plenty of others are charging ~3K for a frame made overseas, what's going to happen when fuel hits 2x as much as it is now? 3x? 4x? I'm betting it gets cheaper to move production back. Could be 10-15 years down the line though.
 

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Appalachian Singletrack'n
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William42 said:
....what's going to happen when fuel hits 2x as much as it is now? 3x? 4x? .....QUOTE]

When fuel increases 2X-4X so will food, and jobs will be far more scarce than they are now. People won't be buying expensive mountain bikes and high end MTB companies like Turner won't be around.
 

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Are we giving DT a choice demanding lower prices??? Bickering back and forth how we need an RFX at Banshee prices. Are American manufacturers giving him a choice demanding higher prices??? All the big players have left state side manufacturing to A) become more profitable and B) to stay competitive amongst their competitors or take the Titus route. We are all running out of reasons to pay $2500 for a frame in aluminum when overseas carbon is there already. And a pound or two lighter. A US made carbon frame would probably be $4000 minimum, not to mention the tooling costs! I walked into a Specialized dealer, look at the new carbon Epic 29er, looks very similar to my 1995 AMP Research B3, with a $9000 price tag and a "Made in Taiwan" sticker on it. Not bad for almost 20 year technology! :madman:
 

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Just a matter of time IMO.
Many here use a made in China iPhone. The credit and most $ still goes to Steve Jobs.
DT with all the respect is no greater than SJ and global trends, so he can still design great frames and manufacture where it makes sense.
 

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not sure about you, but i dont ride my iphone at 40 mph down a steep rocky trail where failure or inability to perform could literally mean life or death. as more companies move overseas, the more the american made companies will be able to charge what it takes to keep their company running. when you make bikes overseas, you are just like everyone else and it is hard to break away from the pack. when you make great bikes in america, you have a niche. there will always be people wanting and willing to pay for an american made frame. titus failed because they moved overseas and lost their identity and handmade quality. imo, if dave moves overseas he will suffer the same fate of titus (but he might make some cash in a sellout situation, or get pushed out like cocalis.)
 

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cheb said:
I walked into a Specialized dealer, look at the new carbon Epic 29er, looks very similar to my 1995 AMP Research B3, with a $9000 price tag and a "Made in Taiwan" sticker on it. Not bad for almost 20 year technology! :madman:
I'm sure you would notice the almost 20 year technology difference in the ride, but that price tag still stings for something "Made in Taiwan"....hmmm the cost of progress!
 

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carpe mañana
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gnomer said:
not sure about you, but i dont ride my iphone at 40 mph down a steep rocky trail where failure or inability to perform could literally mean life or death. as more companies move overseas, the more the american made companies will be able to charge what it takes to keep their company running. when you make bikes overseas, you are just like everyone else and it is hard to break away from the pack. when you make great bikes in america, you have a niche. there will always be people wanting and willing to pay for an american made frame. titus failed because they moved overseas and lost their identity and handmade quality. imo, if dave moves overseas he will suffer the same fate of titus (but he might make some cash in a sellout situation, or get pushed out like cocalis.)
I don't think that manufacturing quality has much to do with the economy of things (stuff can be made just as well on both continents); I don't have any less faith in my IBIS or Iron Horse than I do with my Turner on the way downhill.

US needs to make stuff inland but the cost of making things here makes it very difficult to compete. It is a difficult equation and it is further underminded by the fact that the consumer base doesn't care to pay extra for the US made sticker.

As to Titus failing; it failed because it was run by corporate interest of non-enthusiasts rather than by a man with passion and vision. Losing Chris Cocalis doomed Titus.

_MK
 

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cheb said:
Are we giving DT a choice demanding lower prices??? Bickering back and forth how we need an RFX at Banshee prices. Are American manufacturers giving him a choice demanding higher prices??? All the big players have left state side manufacturing to A) become more profitable and B) to stay competitive amongst their competitors or take the Titus route. We are all running out of reasons to pay $2500 for a frame in aluminum when overseas carbon is there already. And a pound or two lighter. A US made carbon frame would probably be $4000 minimum, not to mention the tooling costs! I walked into a Specialized dealer, look at the new carbon Epic 29er, looks very similar to my 1995 AMP Research B3, with a $9000 price tag and a "Made in Taiwan" sticker on it. Not bad for almost 20 year technology! :madman:
Trek will sell you a complete USA made carbon bike for ~$3700.

Titus had a "made in the USA" (same place as the Turner) ML for 2K.

Why would Turner reduce his prices? If I am not mistaken, they demand is still pretty high for a Turner. Free market baby.
 

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MK_ said:
I don't think that manufacturing quality has much to do with the economy of things (stuff can be made just as well on both continents); I don't have any less faith in my IBIS or Iron Horse than I do with my Turner on the way downhill.

US needs to make stuff inland but the cost of making things here makes it very difficult to compete. It is a difficult equation and it is further underminded by the fact that the consumer base doesn't care to pay extra for the US made sticker.

As to Titus failing; it failed because it was run by corporate interest of non-enthusiasts rather than by a man with passion and vision. Losing Chris Cocalis doomed Titus.

_MK
titus being run by a 'corporate interest of non-enthusiasts' is also why they moved off-shore. so....good point. not to say an off-shore frame is going to fall apart, but if you believe that the quality is equal to a quality american made frame than i wold have to argue.
 

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carpe mañana
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gnomer said:
titus being run by a 'corporate interest of non-enthusiasts' is also why they moved off-shore. so....good point. not to say an off-shore frame is going to fall apart, but if you believe that the quality is equal to a quality american made frame than i wold have to argue.
So, to argue, do you believe that American manufactured cars are on par or better quality than foreign? I'd definitely have to disagree; while it definitely isn't true in all instances, it is true in most.

_MK
 

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gnomer said:
not sure about you, but i dont ride my iphone at 40 mph down a steep rocky trail where failure or inability to perform could literally mean life or death.
Say what you will about Apple, but they have their supply chain management very well under control. They also deliver shortly after showing/announcing new products. 2 characteristics I'm getting more and more annoyed with Turner over the years. Show us bikes when your ready to ship them. I will never be willing to go through the "3-5 more weeks" for a entire year (DHR) only to have the shipped frames then get recalled due to a manufacturing/supply chain control issues, leaving the rest of us delayed again. Imagine if Apple had issues such as these for their first 20% of iPhone V's!

Turner outsources some of their manufacturing already. Personally, I would rather have a Asian produced Turner that is delivered on time, when it was promised than the delays I've got on the past 2 Turners I've tried to purchase. At the end of the day for me personally, its about having something to ride and knowing what you can expect and count on from a company to deliver, more than where a CNC milling machine is running.

One more comparison to Apple. What if outsourcing allows you to innovate faster? How much do you gain/loose in opportunity costs? DHR and RFX for example. If the DHR actually shipped in April 2010, how much more of a game changer would it have been than shipping this winter? There are a lot of people who have narrowed the DHR down to their top 5 in 2011, my guess is this would have been one of your top 3 or less as not all of the other choices where even announced this time last year. A la, Apple iPad vs 9 months later Android Honeycomb.
 

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cars, bikes are very different, imo. a bike frame requires flawless welds, precision alignment, high-quality material (tubing and cnc'd bits,) and incredible quality control through the heat-treating and painting/anodizing process.

if you want to make a car comparison, the only comparison could be to the highest level of sports cars and/or racing vehicles. none of which are made in china as far as i know. perhaps we should distinguish between things made in china/taiwan and things made in usa/canada/europe, instead of usa vs. overseas.

china is well known for having issues with quality control over materials and cutting corners. i would rather buy a bike from a company where the owner is overseeing every step of the process, impossible to do even with the most well intentioned owners of companies making bikes in china.
 

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carpe mañana
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gnomer said:
cars, bikes are very different, imo. a bike frame requires flawless welds, precision alignment, high-quality material (tubing and cnc'd bits,) and incredible quality control through the heat-treating and painting/anodizing process.

if you want to make a car comparison, the only comparison could be to the highest level of sports cars and/or racing vehicles. none of which are made in china as far as i know. perhaps we should distinguish between things made in china/taiwan and things made in usa/canada/europe, instead of usa vs. overseas.

china is well known for having issues with quality control over materials and cutting corners. i would rather buy a bike from a company where the owner is overseeing every step of the process, impossible to do even with the most well intentioned owners of companies making bikes in china.
I would disagree with your racing vehicle comment. Bike frames, like cars, are mass produced; the volumes may be lower, however, overall attention to detail, QC, all that needs to be high for the product to have a good reputation, if you will.

And I completely agree that majority of what's made in China is crap; however, since nearly everything is made there, it is prudent to recognize that a lot of high quality stuff is made there as well, granted, not at a cost as low as the cheap *****.

Personally, I'd far prefer for everything to be made here; however, that is a very long and very politically charged debate; the bottom line is, the way things are going, the only foreseeable savior would be for transportation costs to skyrocket to prevent further decline in American manufacturing.

_MK
 

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gnomer said:
china is well known for having issues with quality control over materials and cutting corners. i would rather buy a bike from a company where the owner is overseeing every step of the process, impossible to do even with the most well intentioned owners of companies making bikes in china.
That is a terrible generalisation. Yes China makes some things to a budget but at the opposite end of the scale they also make some of the highest quaility products you'll see. Unfortunately they all fall under the Made in China tag.

Ignoring bikes for the moment but in the industry I work in Made in the USA is normally a sign of an unreliable inferior product.

In a global world look at the company behind the product not the country of manufacture.
 

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At some point, the "made in China is crap" statement is not going to hold 100% true. The same was said of Taiwanese goods in the 70's/80's and Japanese goods in the 60's/70's. Already we are seeing some great gains in quality.
 
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