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Bicyclochondriac.
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Discussion Starter #41
I am not much a believer in "planned" obsolescence in the bike industry. When I think of the level of industry-wide planning, cooperation, and coordination that would be needed to make this profitable for any given company, the term "herding cats" comes to mind.
 

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On the subject of planned obsolescence... I am not sure it really happens, maybe in some cases, but I think a lot of the little changes like boost, that affect you guys the end users a LOT when trying to find replacement parts or frames to fit your $1500 wheelset is this: The industry is largely made up of bike fanatics, and 'we' get screwed in on making better stuff. Better stuff according to us, and in that pursuit of improving the products we create we might have to deviate from standards, and justify it by the pursuit of perfection. Now the bigger the company the bigger wider the cluster fvk, like Boost. Trek decided to make a plus bike hardtail and needed chain clearance for the fatter tire, Voila' boost was born. Press fit was was to reduce weight, eliminate the alloy shell in the carbon frame. Then of course the epoxy that holds the threaded shell in the frame can be eliminated and as many companies in the industry know, bonding is a source of warranties. Sure, the epoxy is 'supposed' to be stronger than the aluminum sleeve blah blah blah, but someone has to set up the epoxy system in the factory, if they are off.. epoxy is weak. But as many have attested, tolerances in the PF shells is not always followed and Voila', loose cups in the shell. I am sure there is a interesting story or solid theory on each of the changes made to make the old parts obsolete.
Thanks DT. I've witnessed the same over the years. Every time something new gets invented, it's a work in progress and something changes and a new standard is created to solve the problems it created. Using your example. I remember when you came out with the V3 27.5 Flux and other versions of your bikes. You stated we already had great, expensive wheels and this allowed us to have great bikes without having to get new wheels. And I'm still running a 2x11 on this particular bike because I cannot get the low enough and high enough gears (this was before all the current 12 spd, wide range stuff became available). Every 1x set up would be too much of a compromise in one direction or another.

So one day I decided I'd do an experiment. I'd try to run 26x2.8 tires on the bike. I built myself a set of 26" rims laced to 12x142 hubs and acquired 26x2.8 Maxis tires. Talk about a unicorn set of wheels. No much demand for those. Well. The tires fit fine but the chain line was all screwed up. In the granny gear and the lowest gears of the "big" chainring the chain would rub against the tire. I guess my "old" bike was becoming obsolete. I managed to find a friend who wanted to buy such a wheelset (sold nice and cheap to him).

Oh. And all that crap with the PF bottom brackets. I've fixed my share (friend's bikes) of Giants, Cervelos and the like of the stupid aluminum inserts that come unglued from the frame when you try to remove the bearings. I don't own a bike shop but I do have access to a machine shop so there was a bunch of creative machining to save the aluminum sleeve to be reused with a new set of bearings. Saved my friends a boat load of $$.
 

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I was psyched to see the site for Tuner Bikes was back. But very surprised by what I saw: No FS bikes. Only three bike models: HT, Gravel, and CX.

I would love to know what his reasons were. Seems worthy of an interview piece.

The good news is that he is still supporting previous models. Even has torque specs on the site.
I still have 2 Horst link and one of the last multi pivot aluminum Turners and they're still great. I would buy another U.S. made Turner.
 

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My carbon fiber Flux will continue to be ridden hard until it breaks. The replacement NSK frame bearings may outlast the frame. I never regret riding 2x11 on my trails. I won't be changing this anytime soon either. The only thing that I am worried about for my next bike is who will be making a reasonably light aluminum FS frame by then. If it ain't DT, I may hire DW to design and learn to weld myself!:) I may be retired by them.
 

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Sorry to bum you out TTTurner, but because of the way trails have been built the last several years, i.e., the ALine influence, there will be no more 'reasonably light' alloy frames ever again. IMO. Back in the old days I was always sweating the weights of the 02, Nitrous, Flux, 5 Spot, Burner and later DHR. The early DHRs, Highline and RFX were always built to the hilt. Except for the early Highline swing arms... but the revised version is still out there hucking strong! I know you have noticed bike weights are up, especially alloy. I bet enduro class are +/- 8lbs, as they need the material to handle slap slap slap all the way down the trail. Then back up and slap slap slap again and again and again. That is mountain biking today for those that can access flow trails, much different than when I was designing the alloy mtbs. Add in much stiffer forks and way slacker HA for a massive increase in leverage creating a whole new stress, so more material to eliminate warranties.

DT
 

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Dave,

The new Nitrous looks fantastic. I sent you an email via your website last night asking a few questions; I think this is the perfect second bike for someone like me - I own a Transition Spur, and love the geometry (very similar to the Nitrous) but need a lighter bike for local trails and XC/marathon racing. I have zero desire to go back and forth from the Spur to a twitchy XC bike, and the Nitrous would preserve the technical prowess of that bike while being a better tool for racing, fast group rides, and even the pavement/gravel/fire roads we have here linking our local trails (and leading from my house to the trails, I hate loading up a bike to ride locally and almost always ride the road from home to the trailhead).

Hoping to get a complete bike (with race wheels and tires) below 22 lbs at least, with dropper, and would run a second wheelset for training and general trail riding.

Good luck with the new direction; you've definitely identified a niche and I always loved my older Turner bikes (horst-link Burner, 5-Spot and 6-Pack).

Edited to add: I honestly believe that XCO bikes will have a very similar geometry to the Nitrous in 2-3 years. There are too many advantages and almost no drawbacks.
 

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Sorry to bum you out TTTurner, but because of the way trails have been built the last several years, i.e., the ALine influence, there will be no more 'reasonably light' alloy frames ever again. IMO. Back in the old days I was always sweating the weights of the 02, Nitrous, Flux, 5 Spot, Burner and later DHR. The early DHRs, Highline and RFX were always built to the hilt. Except for the early Highline swing arms... but the revised version is still out there hucking strong! I know you have noticed bike weights are up, especially alloy. I bet enduro class are +/- 8lbs, as they need the material to handle slap slap slap all the way down the trail. Then back up and slap slap slap again and again and again. That is mountain biking today for those that can access flow trails, much different than when I was designing the alloy mtbs. Add in much stiffer forks and way slacker HA for a massive increase in leverage creating a whole new stress, so more material to eliminate warranties.

DT
Dave, I have noticed the same thing over the years. I remember back in the late 90's, I had a 24 lb Psycle Werks that already had 4.5" of travel. This was around the time my friend said I should start looking at Turner Suspension bikes. I thought to myself (my PW was already a few years older (early 2000's I think)) why would I want to get a heavier bike that only had about a 1/2" of travel over what I was riding? Somewhere around that time (I think around 2004) RS came out with their Pike (coil) that basically said I could build a single crowned fork'd bike around the 5 Spot. Game changer. But yes, I remember many conversations with you Dave (and others) about how the frames are needing to be so much beefier because of the style of riding that was happening. In fact, I remember you pulling out a magazine (2014 ish) and showing me pictures of all the ads showing people railing turns with their wide bars and saying this is what people are seeing as far as mountain biking. No longer are "kids" seeing mountain biking as a tool to get out and explore. Climbing and long, epic exploratory rides aren't the norm anymore. The rides like Crested Butte to Aspen over Pearl Pass.

Back in the late 90's, I went to New Zealand and rode a bunch of places. We climbed and explored everywhere. I remember some of the local kids oggling over our bikes because they only saw some of the stuff we had in magazines. They blown away that we old guys could climb and ride all the stuff we could. And going back in 2015, the place is full of lifts and groomed trails. We still managed to find some great, epic climbing, exploring rides that took us all day to ride from our doorstep and back without a lift. Switzerland still has a bunch of that kind of riding too.
 

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Sorry to bum you out TTTurner, but because of the way trails have been built the last several years, i.e., the ALine influence, there will be no more 'reasonably light' alloy frames ever again. IMO. Back in the old days I was always sweating the weights of the 02, Nitrous, Flux, 5 Spot, Burner and later DHR. The early DHRs, Highline and RFX were always built to the hilt. Except for the early Highline swing arms... but the revised version is still out there hucking strong! I know you have noticed bike weights are up, especially alloy. I bet enduro class are +/- 8lbs, as they need the material to handle slap slap slap all the way down the trail. Then back up and slap slap slap again and again and again. That is mountain biking today for those that can access flow trails, much different than when I was designing the alloy mtbs. Add in much stiffer forks and way slacker HA for a massive increase in leverage creating a whole new stress, so more material to eliminate warranties.

DT
Thanks. I figured as much. The mountain biking community really has more of a shuttle and destroy mentality today. I will never change the fact that I like to climb. The overwieght lazy America has our bikes being built more like tanks than bicycles. The huge people that I am seeing on our Coachella Valley trails is mind boggling. They look at me like I am crazy when they see me climbing Dunn Road. :)
 

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... I guess you won't be
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Sorry to bum you out TTTurner, but because of the way trails have been built the last several years, i.e., the ALine influence, there will be no more 'reasonably light' alloy frames ever again. IMO. Back in the old days I was always sweating the weights of the 02, Nitrous, Flux, 5 Spot, Burner and later DHR. The early DHRs, Highline and RFX were always built to the hilt. Except for the early Highline swing arms... but the revised version is still out there hucking strong! I know you have noticed bike weights are up, especially alloy. I bet enduro class are +/- 8lbs, as they need the material to handle slap slap slap all the way down the trail. Then back up and slap slap slap again and again and again. That is mountain biking today for those that can access flow trails, much different than when I was designing the alloy mtbs. Add in much stiffer forks and way slacker HA for a massive increase in leverage creating a whole new stress, so more material to eliminate warranties.

DT
I have to disagree - My GT Sensor (2019) is essentially a horst/tnt era 5-spot that's had the modern geometry magic cast upon it, as well as some very cool hydroformed aluminum tubes. It handles better than my ol' 5-spot ever did on it's best day. Sorry folks, but I pretty much rode only Turner from the late 90's to 2013, and the new bikes have completely eclipsed the best Turner ever built - even a bargain bike like my GT. Hate to say the party is over, but it's been quite the ride. Turner ain't Turner no more.
 

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Bicyclochondriac.
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Discussion Starter #52 (Edited)
I have to disagree - My GT Sensor (2019) is essentially a horst/tnt era 5-spot that's had the modern geometry magic cast upon it, as well as some very cool hydroformed aluminum tubes. It handles better than my ol' 5-spot ever did on it's best day. Sorry folks, but I pretty much rode only Turner from the late 90's to 2013, and the new bikes have completely eclipsed the best Turner ever built - even a bargain bike like my GT. Hate to say the party is over, but it's been quite the ride. Turner ain't Turner no more.
Did you read the post that you were responding to?

It was about frame weight.
 

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Joker, I never said anything about my old bikes handling better than new. New school geometry really is good, even for those of us that eschew shuttles for the climb. I tell riders all the time, moth ball the old twitchy bike (especially 26" era) for something built in the last 5 years. Or newer. I get it, you love the GT, but please strip the GT to the frame and get us a weight. That's the topic that T3 started. Thanks in advance for taking the time ! Oh, a weight with and without the shock would be nice.
 

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Did you read the post that you were responding to?
It was about frame weight.
Not to mention he's comparing an inherently more stable 29'er to a 26'er. What's next - how much better his old 5 Spot handled compared to his prior BMX bike?
 

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Thanks. I figured as much. The mountain biking community really has more of a shuttle and destroy mentality today. I will never change the fact that I like to climb. The overwieght lazy America has our bikes being built more like tanks than bicycles. The huge people that I am seeing on our Coachella Valley trails is mind boggling. They look at me like I am crazy when they see me climbing Dunn Road. :)
Same goes here in NZ- now even worse with E bikes in the mix.

I just love climbing and earning my downhills. I now just ride my cross bike or an old fat chance yo eddy rigid bike I converted to SS 10 years ago. Downgrading (under-biked) to make things far more challenging and interesting on singletrack without having to resort to hucking it off huge jumps as now seems the norm.

So todays ride was a nice change as I dusted off my old Flux. Still a fantastic climber, great fun on techy downhills and still involving enough - especially compared to all the huge "easy" bikes around that completely isolate the rider from the trail surface.

Riding my cross bike off road feels soooo much more connecting to the trails- its the same feeling I get when I hoon about in my little old classic Datsun powered Hillman Imp car. More involving compared to a modern car.

Still love my flux for that bit of extra cush and speed downhill- a great asset to my fleet of bikes....

1915914
 

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Same goes here in NZ- now even worse with E bikes in the mix.

I just love climbing and earning my downhills. I now just ride my cross bike or an old fat chance yo eddy rigid bike I converted to SS 10 years ago. Downgrading (under-biked) to make things far more challenging and interesting on singletrack without having to resort to hucking it off huge jumps as now seems the norm.

So todays ride was a nice change as I dusted off my old Flux. Still a fantastic climber, great fun on techy downhills and still involving enough - especially compared to all the huge "easy" bikes around that completely isolate the rider from the trail surface.

Riding my cross bike off road feels soooo much more connecting to the trails- its the same feeling I get when I hoon about in my little old classic Datsun powered Hillman Imp car. More involving compared to a modern car.

Still love my flux for that bit of extra cush and speed downhill- a great asset to my fleet of bikes....

View attachment 1915914
That car looks sweet!
 

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Same goes here in NZ- now even worse with E bikes in the mix.

I just love climbing and earning my downhills. I now just ride my cross bike or an old fat chance yo eddy rigid bike I converted to SS 10 years ago. Downgrading (under-biked) to make things far more challenging and interesting on singletrack without having to resort to hucking it off huge jumps as now seems the norm.

So todays ride was a nice change as I dusted off my old Flux. Still a fantastic climber, great fun on techy downhills and still involving enough - especially compared to all the huge "easy" bikes around that completely isolate the rider from the trail surface.

Riding my cross bike off road feels soooo much more connecting to the trails- its the same feeling I get when I hoon about in my little old classic Datsun powered Hillman Imp car. More involving compared to a modern car.

Still love my flux for that bit of extra cush and speed downhill- a great asset to my fleet of bikes....

View attachment 1915914
They both look great! Turner has always been a purist's brand that matches my mentality. It's too bad the lazy overweight American mentality has hit most of our bikes and trails. How long before our bikes have digital traction control and anti-lock brakes?:rolleyes:
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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They both look great! Turner has always been a purist's brand that matches my mentality. It's too bad the lazy overweight American mentality has hit most of our bikes and trails. How long before our bikes have digital traction control and anti-lock brakes?:rolleyes:
Well yeah, but I already have a gravel bike.

103774184_10157300714450906_6687589835787160490_o.jpg
 
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