[FishMan473]

Recently went UST tubeless (Hutch. Pythons at the moment), no troubles yet, but I'd like to be prepared when it comes time for a trailside repair. Searching this forum I'm finding a large variety of methods to repair tubeless tires. I'm wondering if I can get a consensus on things.

Super-glue repair: is any brand of super glue superior? How about different containers/nosel, are some easier to use then others? Is there any truth to or fact behind the people who say that wetting the hole first improves the effectiveness of the super glue? Some people say super glue will fix the flat indefinitely, others say only for a week or so, is there a consensus? Does tire brand matter?

Patch kit: Clearly you have to clean the area of the hole, but what about sanding? Some people say sanding is a no-no, is that true? Does tire brand matter? Will this work as well as the tubeless specific patch kit (perhaps if you're very careful about cleaning the area where you will be patching (ie, must be done back in the shop))?

Special tubeless patch kit: Are these different from standard patch kits? Are they the same as car tire repair kits? How much do they cost? Where do I get one? Are some better then others? Does tire brand effect effectiveness?

Sealant: Sounds like it would work well, but I'd rather not add the extra weight, and I've heard some nightmare stories about blow outs with a big latex mess all over the place. And I assume if something goes wrong with the sealant, you can't field repair the tire with another method. unless you're able to clean out all the sealant?

Spare tube: Most people recommend carrying a tube as back-up. Seems reasonable, however, do people think the other methods are effective enough that the tube can be skipped to save weight while racing, etc?

Thanks!

 

[Grumpy]

if your pythons are the tubeless light variety then you should only use the "superglue" method of patching (or run sealant), you should not use superglue, however.
You need to use a special flexible cyanoacrylate for repairing the tire (superglue just a trade name for a type of cyanoacrylate) You should use Loctite #4851 (or #4850 in europe). this will be a permanent repair. (A less flexible cyanoacrylate like "superglue" might only be a temporary repair) See Hutchinson's web site for details.
http://tires.hutchinson.fr/
(look at the bottom for the link to mounting and repairing instructions)

 

[FishMan473]

You need to use a special flexible cyanoacrylate for repairing the tire (superglue just a trade name for a type of cyanoacrylate) You should use Loctite #4851 (or #4850 in europe). this will be a permanent repair.

Yeah I read Hutch.'s sites about the Locktite 4851, but where do you get that stuff? I went to a hardware store and a auto parts store and they had no idea what I was talking about.

 

[Grumpy]

Yeah I read Hutch.'s sites about the Locktite 4851, but where do you get that stuff? I went to a hardware store and a auto parts store and they had no idea what I was talking about.

You will have to find a specialty distributer it is unlikely that any hardware store would carry it. Call Henkel loctite for someone who carries it in your area (loctite.com)

 

[mcgarry]

...[snip]

Sealant: Sounds like it would work well, but I'd rather not add the extra weight, and I've heard some nightmare stories about blow outs with a big latex mess all over the place. And I assume if something goes wrong with the sealant, you can't field repair the tire with another method. unless you're able to clean out all the sealant?

Spare tube: Most people recommend carrying a tube as back-up. Seems reasonable, however, do people think the other methods are effective enough that the tube can be skipped to save weight while racing, etc?

Thanks!

I'm certainly no pro, just a club racer. My experience is limited, but here it is:

On normal rides I run sealant and carry an extra tube in my backpack. I usually do not carry the extra tube when racing. I change the sealant when I change tires, which is typically at least a few times a year.

I have carried an extra tube for quite a while now, and have gone through a few, but so far only to give to other (tubed) riders who need them, whether those who ride with me or who I meet along the trail who really need them. I have not had a flat of any kind since running tubeless + sealant, that's going to be two years this summer, if I remember correctly. Still, I carry a tube just in case.

If you did need to field-repair a tire with sealant, on which the sealant was for some reason unable to seal the hole, the remnants of the sealant should not stop a tube from being placed in the tire in a pinch. Alternatively, if a patch required a clean tire on which to be applied, I think a bit of water from your bottle/backpack along with your glove/sleeve/whatever should suffice to clean the area in question. But, this has never happened to me so I'm just guessing.

Yes, sealant can be a hassle, and can be messy, but in my opinion it's no more of a hassle or a mess than, say, keeping your drivetrain clean. Actually I think it's less, but this just comes down to taste. Like anything else, I think it gets easier with practice. If weight is a concern, the weight thing is legitimate, since yes, it adds weight. It's a tradeoff I am happy to make, for now. And I've heard about the blowouts, and I certainly believe it can happen, but anecdotally it seems more connected to d-i-y tubeless options and running tires at below recommended psi. But here I really don't know what I'm talking about, that's just a guess.

I don't know anything about the patching options because I've always said I'd worry about it when I needed to, but even though I've been on tubeless since 2001 (2003 with sealant), I haven't yet!

 

[FishMan473]

LocTite 4850/4851?

I went to three specially hardware stores today, one of them had Loc-Tite's official catalog, and I couldn't find Loc-tite 4850 at any of them. Does this stuff go by a different number? Maybe "454 Prism" or "380 Black Max"?

Also, so I think what I'm going to do is, well, once I find this loc-tite super glue, use that for trail side repairs but keep a tube and standard patch kit with me as a triple backup. If I have an larger holes I'll maybe buy a tubeless patch kit back home in the shop for bigger repairs. So does that sound like a safe plan of action?

 

[800-lb-gorilla]

Check out Loctite.com. They have technical data sheets for more cyanoacrylate adhesives than you can shake a stick at.

Here's the PDF for the above-mentioned product:
http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/4851-EN.PDF

Curious that it's more for bonding wood and leather, while other loctite products are supposedly designed for rubber.

 

[mcgarry]

...
Also, so I think what I'm going to do is, well, once I find this loc-tite super glue, use that for trail side repairs but keep a tube and standard patch kit with me as a triple backup. If I have an larger holes I'll maybe buy a tubeless patch kit back home in the shop for bigger repairs. So does that sound like a safe plan of action?

I don't know, maybe I'm just a much gentler rider than I know, but I think running sealant in UST tires, while carrying a tube + standard patch kit for that tube is safety enough for all but the longest rides.

 

[FishMan473]

thanks.....

Check out Loctite.com. They have technical data sheets for more cyanoacrylate adhesives than you can shake a stick at.

Here's the PDF for the above-mentioned product:
http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/4851-EN.PDF

Thanks for forwarding the PDF. Where did you find that? I've looked all over their site and not found it anywhere.

 

[FishMan473]

I don't know, maybe I'm just a much gentler rider than I know, but I think running sealant in UST tires, while carrying a tube + standard patch kit for that tube is safety enough for all but the longest rides.

How much goop do you put in your tires? I've got a bottle of Flat Attack, and I've thought about it but it was such a big mess when I tried the standard tires + sealant thing that I'm not to keen on trying that again. Also the weight, these wheels are heavy enough as it is without adding more in the form of sealant. I rarely get flats anyway, mostly pinch flats and that problem is solved now I figure whatever holes do end up in the tire I could probably glue them up and if not put a tube in an deal with it like a standard tire tube. My only fear is a double flat, neither of which is fixable with the glue... but what's the chance of that? And if some glue won't fix it sealant probably won't either I suppose.

 

[Grumpy]

Thanks for forwarding the PDF. Where did you find that? I've looked all over their site and not found it anywhere.

The product number for the small tube of Loctite 4851 (all you will need) is 37732 you can search for a dealer in your area who carries item #37732 on this page:

http://www.loctite.com/int_henkel/loctite_us/index.cfm?&pageid=21&layout=2

I agree about the questionable application, 4851 seems to be a general purpose flexible Cyanoacrylate while Henkel seems to have some very specific rubber bonding agents (Cyanoacrylates). Was this spec made simple because 4850 is easy to get in Europe and works ok? ('cause 4851 is NOT easy to find in the US) Who Knows, anyone want to try some of the other more rubber specific products?

 

[evildrax]

Take a look at www.kamandirect.com. If you do a search on that site for part #37732 it will direct you to Loctite #4851 (#4850 is for Europe only). I called one of our local Kaman offices and he gave me a price of $19.80 for a 20gm bottle. You can also go to the Loctite web site and search for a local distributor in you area and they should be able to get the stuff direct from Loctite for you. Hope this helps.

 

[FishMan473]

thanks!

Thanks guys, that product number is a HUGE help. We actually have a Kaman in town, that's where I went this morning and they didn't have it in the catalog then, but I bet I can order it with this product number.

The only problem is, it seems like it's kinda pricey. $20 for a 20 mg bottle!?!?!? Is that right? Uhm, uh, what was Mcgarry saying about sealant?

 

[mcgarry]

How much goop do you put in your tires? I've got a bottle of Flat Attack, and I've thought about it but it was such a big mess when I tried the standard tires + sealant thing that I'm not to keen on trying that again. Also the weight, these wheels are heavy enough as it is without adding more in the form of sealant. I rarely get flats anyway, mostly pinch flats and that problem is solved now I figure whatever holes do end up in the tire I could probably glue them up and if not put a tube in an deal with it like a standard tire tube. My only fear is a double flat, neither of which is fixable with the glue... but what's the chance of that? And if some glue won't fix it sealant probably won't either I suppose.

I put about a half-to-two-thirds scoop of Stan's (yeah I use the name-brand stuff) in each tire whenever I change them. In my experience sealant can seal multiple small punctures. I haven't weighed it, but that's probably about 30 grams per tire, or close to it. Yes, that adds weight, but not much. And yes, I confess, that is less than Stan's official recommendation, but in my limited personal experience that is enough to stop air loss and seal small punctures in a 2.0ish XC tire. I believe Stan's official recommendations (1-1.5 scoops) would add 40-60 grams per tire. Now that I've said this, next time I'll probably be too nervous to put anything below a whole scoop in the tires! Still, I say even adding 10-20 grams of sealant is probably better than nothing. But really until right now I've never thought about it in these terms. And again, all of these weights are guesses.

The mess thing is of course subjective, but for me it is no problem. I don't think it's that messy, and the more you do it the better at it you will get. We're talking about changing tires here, your hands are not going to be clean afterwards, sealant or not.

If I did get an unsealable hole on the trail, but the tire was still rideable, personally I think I'd much rather throw in a tube and deal with gluing/patching later. Even in a race, that might be faster. But like I've said, I have not had a flat it almost 2 years (including about 15 races) of running UST + sealant, so this has not come up for me ... your mileage may vary.

 

[divve]

The 380 Black Max stuff will work well or Loctite 480. It's basically a very high quality rubber reinforced cyanoacrylate. Much stronger than supermarket or even hobby level "superglue". As mentioned it's expensive and depending on your source it might cost more than a new tire.

 

[FishMan473]

The 380 Black Max stuff will work well or Loctite 480. It's basically a very high quality rubber reinforced cyanoacrylate. Much stronger than supermarket or even hobby level "superglue". As mentioned it's expensive and depending on your source it might cost more than a new tire.

I ended up getting the 380 Black Max. It was $5 for a 3 gram bottle instead of $20 for a 20 g bottle (which is actually pretty large, at least for something you want to carry around with you in a camelback) and the Black Max was in stock. We'll see how it goes!

 

[like_the_wheel]

I found this thread while searching for some ideas about how to remedy a chronic problem I've been experiencing lately with tubeless tires.

I've been running tubeless for about 2 years now with very few issues to speak of, that is until I moved back down (from Santa Cruz) to Santa Barbara where the trails are ridiculously rocky and hellish on tires/tubes in general. I was running the Specialized Enduro Pro 2.4 "2Bliss" both front and rear but after a few Tunnel runs I managed to pinch-flat the casing of the rear tire beyond repair (or so I'd imagine). I swapped the 980gm rear Specailaized tire out for a burlier DH Michelin Comp16 2.5" weighing almost 1300gms and for the first few rides it help up very well but I managed to pinch it on Cold Springs yesterday after only having it on the bike for two weeks.

I have been running about 30-32psi because otherwise the tire is just too stiff and the ride is greatly compromised. I also have a feeling that the 5th Element air rear shock on my bike having a SUPER-STIFF platform is not helping since it seems to take a split-second to open up upon contacting a rock. I have a DHX air on the way to remedy that apsect of the problem as well as give a better overall feel.

My main question for the tubeless experts is will the loc-tite formula "crazy glue" seal pinch-flats slits that are up to 1/4" in length, or is there some other means of repair, or am I just plain S.O.L. I really want to stick with tubeless but I will need to find a solution that works at least 95% or better of the time even in extreme conditions.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Grumpy]

A 1/4 in cut in the casing (rock pinch I assume) is a fairly serious cut in the cord. I have no doubt super-glue will seal it. Whether it will last (at least for the life of the tire) is the question. (be sure to use a commercial extra flexible cyanoacrylate designed to bond rubber, hardware-store store "superglue" won't stand a chance) You might also want to apply a conventional (or glueless) patch on the inside as well just to give a little more stability to the area. (DON'T sand the inside of the tire, just clean it well before applying the patch) I have recently switched to the locktite black max (because it is easily available at the local Grangers) and it seems to work as well as any.
As far as reliability, I have found that tubless tires are usually more durable (pinch wise) and more supple at any given pressure than a tire and tube combo. (at least for me) So I would guess you would have even more reliability trouble (given your present terrain) if you went back to a tire-tube combo, but it might be worth a try if you get repeated un-patchable cuts in tubeless tires.

 

[like_the_wheel]

It seems like the one large hole didn't cut the cord but it just cut the rubber on either side of the cord and is allowing air to escape throught the cord. I like the patch and glue idea, hopefully that will hold long enough for me to wear through the tread anyway.

I have been installing a tube whenever I pinch a tire and you're right about it being as bad or worse. It seems like the only good solution thus far is to run ridiculous pressure (40psi) but then the ride goes to poop. I'm hoping that with the new rear shock and a new tire with 35-38psi I'll be good to go.

thanks for the feedback.

A 1/4 in cut in the casing (rock pinch I assume) is a fairly serious cut in the cord. I have no doubt super-glue will seal it. Whether it will last (at least for the life of the tire) is the question. (be sure to use a commercial extra flexible cyanoacrylate designed to bond rubber, hardware-store store "superglue" won't stand a chance) You might also want to apply a conventional (or glueless) patch on the inside as well just to give a little more stability to the area. (DON'T sand the inside of the tire, just clean it well before applying the patch) I have recently switched to the locktite black max (because it is easily available at the local Grangers) and it seems to work as well as any.
As far as reliability, I have found that tubless tires are usually more durable (pinch wise) and more supple at any given pressure than a tire and tube combo. (at least for me) So I would guess you would have even more reliability trouble (given your present terrain) if you went back to a tire-tube combo, but it might be worth a try if you get repeated un-patchable cuts in tubeless tires.

 

[Grumpy]

Yeah I have to run nearly 40PSI (38) in the rear (roll-x or 2.10 spider) when I am on fast rocky terrain, or risk beating up the tire (and rim) on axeheads and square edged rock hits. The same tire with tube I have to run nearly 50PSI or risk pinch flatting several times every ride. The 2bliss at 38 and the tubed at 48 are not even in the same class (the tubed version feels rock hard, bouncy, and won't hold a line worth a cr_p)

If you didn't cut the cord you shouldn't have to run the inside patch, just the super-glue will do fine. The procedure is outlined on Hutchinson's site but here is my procedure:

Find the hole(s) with soapy water mix, clean and rinse the area of the hole well with a rag and clean water. Then use a squirt of acetone (or some other non-polar solvent) and wipe clean (this cleans any remaining oily residue and dries the area). deflate the tire and pinch the tire (squish tread open between fingers) to open the hole. rinse with a squirt of acetone and wipe off excess (should dry immediately) put a drop of superglue on the opening (still pinching it open) and then immediately reverse the pinch holding the hole closed (this is where it is necessary to have a patch on the inside if you cut the cord) and wait 30seconds before releasing the reverse pinch. After another 20-30 seconds you can re-inflate. (you never need to break the bead)
This procedure has never missed for me (successfully patched literally dozens of holes in hutch 2.10 and 2.30 spiders (ust lite) and the roll-x 2bliss's)